064 - Autism: Ian's Perspective

Seek First To Understand are words I first heard from Steven Covey back in the 90’s.  It has always resonated with me.

We are all different and have our own unique set of gifts and obstacles to face.  

However, some of us seem to either be blessed with more gifts or confronted with more obstacles.

 So when Ian Hoyman expressed an interest in talking to me about his personal perspective on Autism, I considered it a privilege.

I have never had the opportunity to talk to someone who lives with Autism to learn more about what it is, ask about how they view the world and how they would like to be treated by others.

My conversation with Ian reminds us that even though we don’t all view the world from the same lens, we share many commonalities.

We all desire to be understood, valued and affirmed.  Listening to other perspectives will help us be more aware and open-minded.

 With Thanksgiving Day approaching, may this serve as a reminder to express kindness as well as gratitude and appreciation for all that we are given.

In this episode we will cover:

• Autism Explained
• Diagnosis
• Thinking Differently
• Yelling
• Groups & Peer Pressure
• Individuality
• Generalizations
• The Right People
• Empathy
• Routine

Thanks so much for tuning in again this week. I appreciate you  :)

Have some feedback you’d like to share? Leave a note in the Feedback section.

Special thanks to Ian Hoyman for being on the show.

Chapters

• 2:51 Autism Explained
• 4:54 Diagnosis
• 5:35 Thinking Differently
• 9:24 Yelling
• 10:48 Groups & Peer Pressure
• 12:57 Individuality
• 13:42 Generalizations
• 15:31 The Right People
• 17:23 Empathy
• 19:37 Routine

Transcript

Marisa Huston  0:00  
Welcome to Episode 64 on the Live Blissed Out podcast. Did you know that autism spectrum disorder affects approximately 1 in 54 children? Boys are nearly four times more likely than girls to be diagnosed with ASD. Hello, action takers! Welcome to Live Blissed out. A podcast where I have inspirational and informational conversations with business owners and subject matter experts to help us get the scoop and the lowdown on a variety of topics. Tired of hesitating or making decisions without having the big picture? Wanna be in the know? Then this is the place to go. I'm your host Marisa Huston. Helping achieve bliss through awareness and action. Thanks for joining me. The information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only. And any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast should not be considered professional advice. Seek first to understand are words I first heard from Stephen Covey back in the 90's. It has always resonated with me. We are all different and have our own unique set of gifts and obstacles to face. However, some of us seem to either be blessed with more gifts or confronted with more obstacles. So when Ian Hoyman expressed an interest in talking to me about his personal perspective on autism, I considered it a privilege, I have never had the opportunity to talk to someone who lives with autism to learn more about what it is, ask about how they view the world and how they would like to be treated by others. My conversation with Ian reminds us that even though we don't all view the world from the same lens, we share many commonalities. We all desire to be understood, valued and affirmed. Listening to other perspectives will help us be more aware and open minded. With thanksgiving day approaching, may this serve as a reminder to express kindness, as well as gratitude and appreciation for all that we are given. Ian, it's wonderful to have you on the show today.

Ian Hoyman  2:03  
Thank you.

Marisa Huston  2:04  
I'm looking forward to this conversation. We're going to be talking about autism. And I'll be honest with you, I know very little about it. My first ever exposure, where it was actually mentioned as autism was on a TV show, believe it or not when I was a kid. And I watched this show called Son Rise: A Miracle Of Love. And it was about a family who had an autistic son and his name was Raun Kaufman. The only exposure I had was that show watching how they were able to diagnose him, and basically their family story, I've never really had an opportunity to talk to somebody with autism about this. I'm really looking forward to learning from you. From your perspective, what exactly is autism?

Ian Hoyman  2:51  
I can definitely try. Thank you for having me, by the way. Autism nowadays is considered a spectrum. So it's a wide range of essentially low functioning to high functioning. And I have Asperger's which is kind of on the higher end functioning of autism. But you'll kind of see a lot of different types of autism. People who really struggle and you know, basic functioning with socializing. And then you have people who generally can do well are often in job sciences or arts. So that's kind of what you'll mostly see. But Autism is really a type of cognitive disorder. It affects a lot of different aspects of the way you socialize the way you think. Things like we don't pick up on social cues very well. Like if someone was to say something we wouldn't pick up on the hidden meaning. I can't think of an example right now. Sorry.

Marisa Huston  3:44  
Explain to me more, I guess. When you say you can't pick up on cues, is that more of like how they physically manifest themselves? Or is it more in how they say things? And you're not able to really interpret what the meaning is behind it? Is that what you mean? 

Ian Hoyman  4:01  
Kind of both body language and word interpretation can be a bit difficult, we tend to take things very much at face value.

Marisa Huston  4:09  
So more literal, you would say?

Ian Hoyman  4:11  
Very literal. Yes.

Marisa Huston  4:12  
What do you feel causes it? Is it something that you're simply born with? Is it something that happens to you at a certain age? Are there people that get it later in life, or basically it only comes across when you're a certain age like as a child? Tell me more about how it manifests itself?

Ian Hoyman  4:33  
This isn't something I've studied too much. I think for the most part, you're born with it. I'm pretty sure it's a genetic condition. I think it's not impossible that it manifests a bit later.

Marisa Huston  4:44  
How do then they diagnose it? What are some of the things that they see happening that would make them think that hey, this child or this individual has autism?

Ian Hoyman  4:54  
Usually the parents would come to a psychologist based on what they see. A lot of the times in the past, autism wasn't diagnosed, so it was just unheard of. We didn't have that understanding of the brain. But usually either a parent or maybe a teacher will reference the fact that they think based on certain behavioral traits, the child has autism. And then they would go to actually get it diagnosed, they would go to a professional psychiatrist, I think, and they would use the DSM, which is the diagnostic manual. And if they fit enough of the criteria, they would be officially diagnosed.

Marisa Huston  5:28  
How do you as an autistic person think differently from somebody who does not have autism?

Ian Hoyman  5:35  
Things are very logical for me. It's very much I just think of things straightforward and I'm trying to find a way to describe it. Because when you don't have a base of reference, it's hard to describe something I think you can imagine. 

Marisa Huston  5:48  
I can. 

Ian Hoyman  5:48  
Like, if you have an emotion no one else has, how do you describe it when you're the only one who feels it?

Marisa Huston  5:53  
Yeah. And that's why I think that when individuals are coming from a different place, you see things differently. And when I say different, I'm different too. There's a lot of factors in every person that makes us different. So it could be for example, your family, where you grew up, the kind of experiences you had and autism is just another level that makes you unique. And so from your perspective, you're viewing things in a way that maybe I would not, and vice versa. And so then it's hard to understand, because oftentimes, we don't have straight conversations with each other to be able to really compare and see what exactly are those differences? But I would say that, perhaps maybe, and I'm guessing here, if somebody met you for the first time and they saw you and interacted with you, maybe they wouldn't know you had autism? They would likely think, okay, maybe this person is shy, or maybe this person is more introverted. Do you get that is that a comparison that you find happens frequently when you meet new people?

Ian Hoyman  6:57  
So believe it or not, people can sometimes think I don't have autism. I'm a bit struggling with what to think right now, so that's why I'm coming across that way, I think. But often, I haven't been told they think I'm introverted, either. I'm actually a very extroverted person. Some people can just kind of see smaller traits who have been really trained in it. If you have someone who really knows about these things, has experienced five or six people with it, they can probably see it. But for someone who's just kind of meeting me for the first time, they probably wouldn't really notice it.

Marisa Huston  7:29  
From your perspective, how should we effectively communicate with you? What works best for you, given the fact that you're saying that sometimes you have a hard time reading things, or you're looking at things from a very logical perspective. If you were to communicate with somebody like me, for example, how can I best get across so that we can work together and communicate effectively,

Ian Hoyman  7:52  
One of the ways that people with autism and Asperger's do work is they tend to be logical thinkers. I definitely can pinpoint about having Asperger's. We tend to be very much a straightforward type, if not really prone to peer pressure, or emotions. So one of the best things you can do when you kind of combine that with the lack of picking up on cues is just being blunt and straightforward.

Marisa Huston  8:17  
You know, I think that if somebody is blunt, they almost feel like they're not being sensitive to you or maybe they're being rude and they don't want to come across that way. Do you find that sometimes people feel awkward being themselves because they're worried that they're going to maybe hurt your feelings or say something that they're not supposed to say?

Ian Hoyman  8:36  
Yeah, I do. But often people with Asperger's and autism take things at face value. So honestly, I don't worry as much about people being blunt with me it's the words they say that can affect it. If someone is to tell me you did this wrong, you need to try again, I wouldn't really be hurt by that. If someone said you're an idiot. I may.

Marisa Huston  8:56  
I wouldn't want that either. I think that would not be a very positive way to communicate with me if somebody talked to me that way too. What is the best way to say certain things? And what are some things for example, we should steer clear of? Don't insult you just say hey, that's not working. I think that there's a lot of similarity there. Is there any other distinguishing thing for example, that makes you feel like wow, why did they have to go there? That was just unnecessary.

Ian Hoyman  9:24  
Yelling.  A lot of autists a lot of aspies don't mind yelling. And that's something where I can especially be very sensitive to that.

Marisa Huston  9:33  
So keeping your cool. Your tone should not go up and get upset because again, that's very emotional and you really like things to be more in a logical plane right?

Ian Hoyman  9:43  
If you can imagine...I'm cautious to use some analogies because there's a lot of you know, all autists all aspies are like this or like that.  But Vulcans from Star Trek are very similar to how best to communicate with aspies. If you just stay calm and just say things the way that it is without trying to hide things or get us to pick up on anything, it'll work really well.

Marisa Huston  10:06  
Okay, that really helps a lot. Actually, that example helped me visualize how you want to be spoken to. I think that there are a lot of us logical people that can totally relate to that, because some of us are not very emotional. I mean, even though there's an emotional side to us as human beings, there's some of us that are much more logical than others. Some really like to dive into the emotional side of things and just get triggered right away. And others are more logical thinkers and want to kind of analyze things and look at the pros and cons. And it sounds to me, based on what you're describing that you're more on the logical side of things.

Ian Hoyman  10:42  
Yeah, definitely. And I think that's often with aspies and people with autism.

Marisa Huston  10:48  
Do you see the world any differently? I think all of us see the world differently, to be honest. It goes back to all of us have different experiences, and we look at things from perspectives that we wouldn't, which is often why when you have a meeting with a group of people, and you bring up a subject matter that you need help with, that maybe you've been stuck with for a really long time, and you ask other people for help, they bring up things that you would have never thought of, and it's wonderful! You're able to see things. It almost opens up a whole new world of ideas that you would have never imagined because you're in your own brain. You're kind of thinking through things, the way you see them, the way you view the world. But is there anything in particular for you that makes you think that you see things maybe uniquely over anyone else?

Ian Hoyman  11:42  
One thing in particular is our aspies autists, a lot are not prone to group thinking, or peer pressure. So often, we tend to be able to sit back when you know, society as a whole said something is good and kind of say, wait a second, is this good and kind of make decisions based on that?

Marisa Huston  12:00  
So it doesn't really matter what everyone else is doing? What matters is that you're comfortable with whatever decision you make.

Ian Hoyman  12:08  
Yeah, exactly.

Marisa Huston  12:09  
I can relate to that. I really can. 

Ian Hoyman  12:11  
Yeah! 

Marisa Huston  12:12  
I like to function that way, too.

Ian Hoyman  12:14  
Yeah, definitely. You'll often find that in the way people with Asperger's dress. Sorry, I kind of switch between saying aspies, autists, people with Asperger's people with autism, there's talk about which way to say it in the community. I'm just not that used to it. So sorry for that inconsistency. 

Marisa Huston  12:30  
That's okay. 

Ian Hoyman  12:31  
But you'll find a lot of different types of ways of dressing. For example, some people will wear sweatpants and a comfortable t-shirt everywhere and that's the end of it. They don't really care to do any other type of clothes. For me, like clothes are usually more elaborate. I wear suits and hats, just going to the grocery store.

Marisa Huston  12:51  
Is that because you feel comfortable in dressing that way? That's just how you like it, right?

Ian Hoyman  12:57  
Yeah, it's just the way I like it. But there's just a lot of that kind of, you know, I'm just gonna do what I want. Do things not the way people tell me to, but just the way I think is best.

Marisa Huston  13:06  
Yeah. And you know what? There are a lot of people that would be jealous of that, to be honest, Ian. We tried to train ourselves to do that. Oftentimes, we tell each other, don't worry about what everybody else says. And we worry so much about it, that it literally stops us in our tracks. We can't move ahead. It's actually one of the things that stops us from doing the things that we want to do, because we're so concerned about what people are going to say. So being able to just tell yourself, look, it doesn't matter. I'm going to be me. And if you like me, great, and if you don't too bad, right? 

Ian Hoyman  13:40  
Yeah, exactly. 

Marisa Huston  13:40  
That's actually a good thing.

Ian Hoyman  13:42  
Yeah, one of the things that really can be a struggle for people on the autism spectrum is a lot of generalizations. Because a lot of how were seen is often by you know, things like Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory or The Good Doctor. Because if someone doesn't have someone with autism in their life, they'll kind of see okay, that's what people with autism are like and it's not at all case. I mean, for me, I'm into poetry, philosophy, creative writing, and I nearly failed sciences in school.

Marisa Huston  14:14  
Just like everyone else, right? There's people that have talents in certain areas and that they love and others not so much, right? Some of us are on the creative spectrum and some of us are more on the math and science side of things, right?

Ian Hoyman  14:27  
Yeah. And it's like with things we like watching her movies we enjoy. I don't really like Star Wars. I don't like Anime. A lot of things that people associate people on the autism spectrum as liking. It's not going to be for everyone.

Marisa Huston  14:41  
Yes, exactly. When you meet somebody for the first time, and they don't know anything about you, do you want them to know that you have autism? Or would you just want to be treated just like anybody else, no difference whatsoever.

Ian Hoyman  14:57  
It's gonna be different with everyone. But for I generally will tell someone, if I think I'm going to have a longer relationship with them, because it's important for them to know. I don't like using it as an excuse. I don't like saying, Oh, well, I got a speeding ticket, I have autism, I don't want to do that. And if I just meet someone for the first time, I probably won't mention it. Because you kind of learn to adapt to the way other people talk. It's easier for us when we're talked to in our language, but we also do generally understand how to talk to other people in theirs.

Marisa Huston  15:31  
Do you feel that people mistreat you sometimes because they sense that you are not what they expect?

Ian Hoyman  15:40  
The good thing I think, for me is I'm in right groups. I'm often in you know, Dungeons and Dragons groups, and you just have to be with the right people. Because there's always going to be groups that won't accept you no matter who you are. And there's always going to be groups who will.

Marisa Huston  15:55  
That is so true, Ian. And that applies to all of us. You kind of learn as you get older, that time is so precious, and you really wanna spend it with the people that you enjoy being around. We like to be around people that get us. Let's say, in my case, I like to sew. So I'm going to be around people who like to sew too, because then we have something in common that we both enjoy that we want to talk about. I think that that's very universal. And I can certainly relate. People will always judge us for doing something differently or doing things that they don't like, and who look at each other and go How can that person enjoy doing that? It's terrible, right? But to that person it's the most wonderful thing in the world. And I think that's what makes the world really interesting, don't you think?

Ian Hoyman  16:43  
Yeah, definitely. Especially individuality. I'm a very strong proponent of living your life the way you want. Being a unique person.

Marisa Huston  16:51  
Yes, I agree with you totally. How can we learn more about autism? Let's say we want to dive more into what it is, what organizations are out there? How do we get more information about it?

Ian Hoyman  17:05  
The internet will always be a great place for it. You can just look on autism spectrum disorder online, and you'll find a lot of stuff on it.

Marisa Huston  17:13  
And is there anything else that you feel we didn't cover that you would like people to know that would help them communicate with you more effectively,

Ian Hoyman  17:23  
Getting into a bit more depth into, you know, psychology. Some people have tried to equate autism with psychopathy, which is a lack of empathy, and they're not, all the same, not remotely. And generally, when people with autism will be empathetic. They just won't show it as much emotionally. We're not very emotive, but we do feel very much empathy. If anything a stronger emotional empathy than most people. We definitely feel all these things but just because we don't always show it doesn't mean we're cold or callous.

Marisa Huston  17:56  
You know, that's really wonderful information to know. I think we judge people and when they don't behave a certain way, then we make an assumption about them. And in that case, they'll say, Well, he's not feeling or he doesn't care. And that is totally not true. It comes across that way so people just assume they know or that that's the case. And it's important for them to understand that that does not correlate.

Ian Hoyman  18:22  
Yeah. Like, for example, if someone does something for us, I just say, thank you. We're definitely not jumping up and down excited. Even if it's a big thing, we'll probably just say, Oh, thanks. But we definitely feel.

Marisa Huston  18:34  
Yes. And you know, I know certain people, for example, who like to hug all the time, and there's people who don't, and the huggers will approach them, and then they kind of step back going, why is this person hugging me? I don't even know them. 

Ian Hoyman  18:47  
Yeah. Definitely.

Marisa Huston  18:47  
And then they feel a little bit put off, and then that person who wants to hug goes, Well, I don't think that person is very nice. Why aren't they friendly? 

Ian Hoyman  18:56  
Yeah.

Marisa Huston  18:57  
It's a kind of communication and really understanding what works for one person doesn't work for another. And it's just respecting their boundaries. I think even culturally, there are countries, for example, where the sense of space is so much more non existent than it is here in the United States. We tend to have to have a certain amount of space between people when we're talking. But when you travel internationally, people are very close. They don't even think twice about it. They'll stand right next to you. And I never noticed that until I started to travel. And then you just realize it's just a cultural difference. So those are the kinds of little cues that sometimes are hard to pick up on.

Ian Hoyman  19:37  
Yeah, definitely. And one of the big other things and this I think is very important is routine and structure is very important for autists. It's just something where in the workplace or with parents at home, a routine something that you can do repeatedly is much better than a surprise. We generally don't like surprises. I mean for example, I'm drinking coffee now. I always drink it out of the same cup.

Marisa Huston  20:01  
Oh! So you have a favorite cup you like to drink from.

Ian Hoyman  20:04  
Yeah. And it's very much a routine thing. It kind of keeps things stable I guess.  Things are understandable and stable when they're similar.

Marisa Huston  20:12  
I get that. I know certain people who love the same thing. They love routine, and other people who want to switch things up. You know, I'll give you an example. My husband is one of those people who when he gets in the car, and we're going somewhere, he never takes the same route. He's always going, Oh, well, I haven't tried this road, let's explore this let's do this. Let's check this out. And it drives me crazy, because I like to follow the same route. I know how to get there and I just want to take that road. It's the quickest way I just want to get there. And so we have those conversations all the time. Now, I have to say I do learn from him. Because when he makes that switch, then I go, wow, this is actually better and shorter and I would never have figured it out if I had not been forced to go this route with him. Right? That exposure helps. But I'm going to agree with you in that sense that I'm the same way. If I know something works and I really like the way it works, I'm going to stick with it. I can relate to that for sure. 

Ian Hoyman  21:09  
Yeah.

Marisa Huston  21:09  
Thank you so much, Ian for sharing this. I really appreciate you being here.

Ian Hoyman  21:15  
Absolutely! Thank you so much for having me.

Marisa Huston  21:17  
It's been great! Thank you. 

Ian Hoyman  21:19  
Absolutely.

Marisa Huston  21:20  
That's all for this episode of Live Blissed Out. Thanks for listening and thanks to Ian Hoyman for being my guest. If you have a question or comment for a future episode, all you have to do is go to www.speakpipe.com/lbovm, or click the link in the show notes to leave a brief audio message. If you find value in our show, please visit www.liveblissed out.com. to reach out, subscribe and share on social media. This show is made possible through listeners like you. Thank you. So long for now and remember to keep moving forward!

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