Live Blissed Out
Live Blissed Out
165 - Yes, You Can Finish Your Book (and Have Fun Doing It!)
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Jordan Ring is a book ghostwriter, book coach, and developmental editor. He's also written 8 books under his own name. He lives in Lisbon, Portugal with his wife, Miranda. When he's not writing, you will find him on the padel court!
To learn more about how Jordan can help you write a book you'd be proud to share, visit www.jmring.com
Action Step:
An excellent first step is to talk to a friend about your book idea and see what they say. Sounds super simple, but talking about your ideas out loud with someone else is a great way to practice critical thinking.
Offers:
With this Guide: Write a Book Your Audience Loves
https://jmring.com/book-alchemy-101-report/
DM Jordan on LinkedIn to get a FREE copy of Nonfiction Alchemy!
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Did You Know 0:00
Did you know 97% of people who start writing a book will never finish?
Intro 0:05
Hello, action taker! Welcome to Live Blissed out, a podcast where I have inspirational and informational conversations with business owners and subject matter experts to help you get the scoop on a variety of topics. Tired of hesitating or making decisions without having the big picture? Wanna be in the know? Then this is the place to go. I'm your host, Marisa Huston, helping you achieve bliss through awareness and action. So let's get to it. Jordan Ring is a book ghost writer, book coach and developmental editor. He's also written eight books under his own name. He lives in Lisbon, Portugal with his wife Miranda, to learn more about how Jordan can help you write a book you'd be proud to share, visit www.jmring.com Big thanks to SG Associates LLC, your trusted merchant solutions partner for sponsoring today's episode. For reliable credit card processing and payment services, visit them at www.sgapayments.com.
Disclaimer 1:02
The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast should not be considered professional advice.
Marisa Huston 1:14
Jordan, thank you so much for being here.
Jordan Ring 1:17
Of course, Marisa, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Marisa Huston 1:19
Yeah, me too. And you're the first ghost writer I've ever spoken to on the podcast. So this is gonna be really fun.
Jordan Ring 1:26
Yeah, I love it.
Marisa Huston 1:28
I think that most of us define ghost writing in a very simple way, and that is, you know, if I were to go out and ask somebody, what do you think a ghost writer is, they'll say, oh, it's somebody who writes books for you. And I know that there's much more to it, and that's why I'm excited to have this conversation, because I think our listeners are going to want to learn more. It's one of those things they probably never looked into, just because they had their own definition in their head as to what it is. And I think now we can demystify that a little bit and talk about the things they should be thinking about or understand about what ghost writing is. So I think it would be a good first step here to start the conversation by having you define what ghost writing is and how it works.
Jordan Ring 2:08
Sure, and I love even just the way that you talked about it in the beginning. There it is writing a book for you. But it's also even more than that. It's writing a book with you. That's what I always change it from that for to with that takes it into this very collaborative kind of relationship that I have with all of my authors. I am not this ghost writer that you give a kind of direction to and then I go and just put out exactly what you want. No, it's so collaborative and in nature, in that way, I'm interviewing you. We're talking about your book ideas, and we're working together on that book project. That's the big initial demystifier there.
Marisa Huston 2:44
Yeah, and I think it's so important Jordan, because I think that a lot of people define it as somebody writes it for me, and they don't even think about the collaborative part. And in some cases, it might be a good thing, but in other cases, people are like, Wait a minute. I feel like I'm not doing this right. If I'm not involved, then how is it my book? Knowing that there's somebody collaborating with you makes you feel like you're not an imposter, like it really is your book. You're just collaborating with someone else to create it.
Jordan Ring 3:11
Yeah, exactly. And some of the people I work with put in an hour or two per week with me. Some put in more. So it just totally depends on how much time and how involved you want to be? But at the end of the day, I always want the author to be as involved as they want to be, and it's still their story, so it's still going to be in their voice that we work on and decide together. It's going to be their methods, their methodologies, their processes, their strategies, whatever it is, whatever the book topic is, it's going to be theirs. And the goal at the end is for whoever's reading that book to say, oh, man, this totally sounds like you. This is your book. I mean, for me as a ghost writer, that would be the feedback that I would want my authors to get at the end. Yeah.
Marisa Huston 3:51
So it sounds to me like it's very customized. You get to know your customer, you get to know what they're looking for and understand them, and then, based on that, you're able to help them.
Jordan Ring 4:00
Yes, exactly. And it could be a really fun process too. I mean, I enjoy what I do, but I know my authors who work with me, that's a lot of the feedback that I get say, Hey, this is more fun than I realized putting a book together with you. So.
Marisa Huston 4:10
Yeah, and I think because it takes a lot of pressure off of them, doesn't it, Jordan,?
Jordan Ring 4:13
Yes.
Marisa Huston 4:14
You know, a lot of times people put it off because they're so fearful they don't know how to write. They don't know how to put their thoughts into words or or how to get going with the process, and so knowing that there's somebody there to guide them, I think, takes a lot of stress away.
Jordan Ring 4:27
Yeah, and that's why I enjoy what I do, but that's why I'm also big on ghost writing, is that it's for the people that say, Hey, Jordan, I really don't want to spend the time writing this, but I have a story. I have something to share. I have a legacy that I want to pass on to my family, my friends, the people that I work with every day, and with ghost writing and with help in that way, you can do that. You can tell your story in book form, and you can impact a lot of people through doing that. So it's kind of like taking that limitation of I couldn't possibly write this myself, or I just don't have the time to sit down and do this either.
Marisa Huston 4:57
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what it is. Is and you're solving a problem. I mean, essentially, people tend to procrastinate when it's something they're not familiar with or they're fearful of or skeptical about, and then having somebody to guide them that has been through the process is so helpful. That leads me to this question, what exactly is the difference between a ghost writer and a coach?
Jordan Ring 5:18
Ah, so that is such a great question. So the main difference between ghost writing and book coaching is the amount of time you have to write and the amount of desire. So if you're someone that does want to write a book, and you say, Jordan, I just don't have the time to sit down and write, or I just don't want to write this, that's the someone that the ghost writing services would be most helpful for. And if you're someone that maybe you do have time, and you also say, Jordan, actually, I'm really excited about the writing process, but I don't want to go it alone. I don't want to have to think about who my target audience is going to be. I don't want to have to do the outlining of the book myself and all of those kind of structural details. And I also I'm not sure how to find the time to write. I'm not sure what I should be writing about when I sit down to write. And those are the questions, and those are the things that a book coach can help you with.
Marisa Huston 6:02
So that makes total sense. It is different, and I think it's important that we understand those differences as well. Because, you know, you could end up hiring a coach thinking they're going to help you write it, and then they're like, No, that's not what I do. And you know what I mean? Yeah.
Jordan Ring 6:15
Yeah. And getting clear on those expectations, but for my side, is very important, like, this is what I'm working with you, and this is how we're going through the process. And I try to be as clear as I can of what I help with when I work with someone so. Very important for all ghost writers to do.
Marisa Huston 6:29
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things that people who want to write a book are kind of concerned about is, how do I make sure that Jordan writes a book that reflects me. Like I don't want it to sound like somebody else. I want it to sound like it came from my own mouth. And we all have our own writing style, the way we say things and do things. Can you kind of elaborate on how you work with your clients to make sure that their voice is what is being presented in the book?
Jordan Ring 6:58
That is such a great question, and it's such a common question. So for me, as a ghost writer, again, my number one goal is to make sure that we decide and we work on a voice that you're happy with that sounds like you, and I do that with you through the interview process. So basically, it's like jumping on a podcast like this, except you're doing it once a week, or for a few hours every week with your ghost writer. You're talking about your stories, you're talking about your book content, you're brainstorming together, you're talking about what research you want to do, all of those things, you're having those conversations. And then for me, the more I get to know someone, then the better I am able to write in their voice in the book. And I'll talk about the voice too. A lot of people think they have to discover their writing voice, and my experience is that this is a myth. It's not something you discover. It's something that you can decide upon. It may sound like a subtle difference, but for me, it's a big one, because as we're going throughout the process, if you say Jordan, that totally sounds like me, or this is how I want to present myself, you get to decide that. You get to decide on what your voice is going to be in that book, especially if they're using a ghost writer, they may not have a voice that's already developed. And of course, like we communicate, we talk. You want to sound like you, but in a book, it is different than having a conversation with someone. So how you get to present yourself in a book is something that we work on throughout the process together. And of course, by the end, we want to make sure that it sounds like you. I can't reiterate that enough, because that is very important, but it's not something you necessarily have to discover. It's something that you can choose and decide upon as you work on the project.
Marisa Huston 8:25
Yeah, and I think it is important in the sense that if you're listening to your own story after the fact, and you say to yourself, I would never say it that way. I wouldn't have presented it that way. You almost feel like something's off, like maybe you're not being authentic. That would be a concern for somebody. So I think that collaboration with your ghost writer to say, I want to make sure you capture the essence of who I am and how I would deliver it is important.
Jordan Ring 8:49
Yeah, 100% and that's why I always do my best to encourage people, the authors I'm working with, to always be willing to pop into the document, or just to get on a call with me and say, Jordan, that doesn't sound like me, or I would never say it that way. That way. That is especially helpful in the beginning of the process. And I never take that negatively. That's always very positive, because that helps me. Anytime that you say that, I wouldn't say it that way, or I don't want to come across like that, any feedback like that is extremely helpful, and I do my best to prompt that feedback and not make it something where you have to go in. And I don't know about this, I don't know about that, like it's a conversation in that collaboration.
Marisa Huston 9:21
All right, so now, as you're saying all this, I'm thinking along the lines of what our listeners might be thinking, and they're probably going, how far does a ghost writer go? Is it just to write the book, or do you help them from start to finish to get it out there? Is there a process that goes into everything, or is it strictly, I get you the written word and walk away?
Jordan Ring 9:42
Yeah, that's a great question. So I always help people from the beginning with the marketing questions. We want to think about what the book is going to do for you as the author, you know when the book finally gets done? So thinking of the outline, thinking of the structure and everything in terms of who are we talking to, who's the reader. So all those very important questions I do help people with. But in terms of getting the actual manuscript out there, I have people that I will refer you to to finish the product. So as the ghost writer, I will get that manuscript to a point where it's ready to be copy edited and proofed, and then you will need to think about what publishing paths you want to take. And I can help you with all those decisions, but there's a lot of decisions at the end of what you want to do with that book that depend on those initial questions. So to answer your question yes and no, like we're thinking through it in the beginning, but then, depending on which direction you end up choosing, then there will be other people involved that I would suggest.
Marisa Huston 10:32
Great and I think that's important to know. But the other thing is, since you work with these other folks, it's also a great referral partnership, because now you can say, look, knowing you and knowing the direction we're taking with this book, I recommend you speak to this person to do XYZ, and you could also be a good resource for them to understand how the whole process works.
Jordan Ring 10:52
Yeah, exactly. And this is why I try to always keep skin in the game, meaning I'm always writing a book myself under my own name, because I want to have those kind of battle tested referrals that not just people that I've talked to in my network, but people that I've actually worked with, so the people that I suggest with, like publishing help, or formatting help, or all of those kind of end game processes I've worked with before on my books, because I want my authors to get the best experience possible. So I am always testing and evaluating that part of the process and doing it so that I can see what's new as well, because there's always going to be ever changing landscape.
Marisa Huston 11:27
Yeah, and you know, as they say, you don't know what you don't know, and talking to somebody who's been there really helps make sure that you don't miss important elements of the process. Because we live in a world now Jordan where access to not just information, but the ability to put out information is so easy for everybody to do with all the social media and books and newsletters and blogs and all this stuff, right? We've never been in a time period like this where anybody who decides they want to share can share. How do we cut through the clutter? People might be concerned that I don't want to write another book like everybody's writing a book. There's books all over Amazon. There's books everywhere. I think that's one of the things people always worry about. They're like, if I just put out another book, how do I stand out? Or how do I provide value in such a way that people are going to want to hear what I have to share?
Jordan Ring 12:22
Yeah, and that is such a valuable question for everyone to wrestle with in the beginning part of the process. If you want to write a book, that is one of those questions that I help people through and talk about, like, what is it about your story? What is it about your experience? What is it about your life that you're going to share in this book? It doesn't have to be this next level, like Game Changing system that you've helped like, a million people through, or anything like that. It can actually just be as simple as I went through this, and I really want to talk about this and share this. And here's my unique angle based on what my story is and also what the market potentially needs. So that's why, again, I say when I work with people in the beginning, it's really thinking about their book idea in that marketing lens, like, how is it going to impact the book world, and how is it going to fit next to the other titles out there? Is it just going to be a rehash, or what angle are we going to put on it that's potentially different? So it's thinking through all those questions, but that is a fantastic question for everyone to wrestle with in the beginning.
Marisa Huston 13:17
Yeah, and I'm sure they do. I'm sure that concerns people. Is there a sweet spot for the length of the book? Do you feel like you have to write a novel, or can it be just a book that is an easy read? Is there like a parameter that we're looking for?
Jordan Ring 13:33
Yeah, so I generally say to go between 40 and 60,000 words. That's what I would consider a full length business book. Any less than 40,000 it is smaller. I say that some of the books that I've written under my name are shorter than that, so you can absolutely do that, but generally I say that range. And why do I say that? Mostly because, if you're focused on the print version of the book, having something that is just that length, for lack of a better way of saying it feels better in your hands. That's especially important if you're going to use that book as a marketing tool, and you're going to be giving it out to people. You want something that has a weight to it that says, Okay, I spent a significant amount of time researching, writing and thinking about this book. Now, of course, you can build authority and put shorter books out there in ebook form or even free PDFs that can be extremely valuable. But if you're thinking that, hey, I want a full length business book to help grow my business and to really build that authority, then you're looking in that 40 to 60,000 word range, generally speaking,
Marisa Huston 14:26
You know, there's something intimate about reading somebody's book and story. I also think that you get the impression that they take themselves seriously in a way, right? That they're professional in some way, because to take the time to put a book together is no easy feat, even with help, and so there's an investment of time and money. And so when you're handing over that book to somebody without saying anything, you're essentially letting them know it's important enough for me to share, and I took the time to put something together that I think is a value.
Jordan Ring 14:57
Yes, absolutely.
Marisa Huston 14:59
Yeah. And I think that's where the authority comes in, because somebody can go into a training class and teach you something, and you walk away and you're like, Okay, that was great, but now they hand out a book, and you're like, wow, I get to know them better. I get to get a deeper understanding of where they're coming from and the experiences they've had, and they probably solve more problems, are able to share more information than they did in the event. So it kind of closes the loop and also gives them something tangible that they can refer to. So there's this element of professionalism, I guess, that you get, and I'm thinking primarily from a business standpoint, that you would have this perception of that person, as opposed to somebody who doesn't have a book
Jordan Ring 15:38
I'll share. Like, from my experience, I have a book that I wrote last year. It's a book about writing a book called Nonfiction Alchemy. And when I give that book to someone, and they take the time to read it, the calls that we have after that, if there's someone that may want to work with me to write a book, they already kind of know me. They know my process. They're already familiar, and it makes that first call so much, I would say better, but we already kind of have a relationship, because they've read my work, they've read what I put out there, and, you know, they like it enough to have a conversation with me. And that's what the book can do. There can be an infinite number of people reading your book at any one time. Not that it pre qualifies, but it just helps build that trust in that relationship before you even have the opportunity to talk to them.
Marisa Huston 16:17
Yeah, there's something about it. I mean, even like what we're doing now in a podcast. You know, when people listen to a podcast, they feel like they have a connection with us. We don't have anything scripted. We're just talking about a particular topic that you have expertise in. I want to learn. And me as a podcaster, the joy that I get is sharing it with others, because you and I could sit on a phone call and have a conversation and I could hog all the information you have to share, but the whole point for me is sharing it with everyone else, and that's why we put it out on a podcast. I think there's something to be said about that, because people listen to us and they connect with us as humans, because they're going through that same experience. The book does the same thing in a different way.
Jordan Ring 16:56
Yes, exactly. Well, very well. Said. That's so true.
Marisa Huston 16:59
Yeah, absolutely. Of course, like anything else, if we're talking about marketing, most businesses will ask the question, how do I get ROI for my time and my investment in writing a book? And that's inevitable, A lot of times in marketing, it's a challenge because it's very hard to quantify. There are ways to do it, but many marketers have difficulty really being able to guarantee, like, you know, you do this and you're going to get this for sure, and people get frustrated when they don't have a solid number. But marketing isn't an exact science that way. It depends on so many different factors. Can you give us an idea as to what people can typically expect if they make the effort to write their book with you.
Jordan Ring 17:41
Yeah, like you said, it's really hard to give a number or to say this is exactly what to expect. But like we were just talking about before, it's that trust currency you're building with people that is so hard to put any kind of numbered ROI on that, but it can be huge. And for a lot of people that I've worked with, it is huge, especially if you're writing a business nonfiction book and you have some kind of primary offer that you're offering, say you're like a coach or a consultant, and you're offering those as services. Well, if you start giving books to potential leads, and they're reading those books, and then, like I said, they come to you and they're saying, I really like what you put together, I'm already ready to work with you, thinking just about what you'd be charging for that primary offer and how that trust currency is helping you, is one of the biggest reasons to put a book out there. As far as ROI, that's one of your best but again, it's hard to track that for sure. When people come to me and say, Oh, Jordan, how much are we going to make on this book? Very difficult question to answer. Here's all the different things it can do for you and help you with in terms of, like, tracking an exact ROI, it's a very difficult science. I don't know if that answers your question, great, but that's kind of the the answer there.
Marisa Huston 18:43
Yeah, it does. Thank you for clarifying that. And I would say too that one of the things that a lot of people wonder is, okay, if I make the investment to write this book, will it still be relevant to people five years from now? 10 years from now? Are those things that you consider when you help them write it, or are there ways for them to edit it down the road if something all of a sudden goes by the wayside and is not applicable anymore? Is that something that they can update at a later time if they choose to?
Jordan Ring 19:13
I'll try to be quick, but it's kind of like a three part answer, yes, you can edit it later on. That's no problem. You can do that. You can resubmit edited versions of your book, like a version one, version two, like, that's fine. And the second thing I would say is, I work with people to make that book as timeless as possible. We want to make it timeless, and we want to make it evergreen, so that we don't have to do a version update. You know, every year if things change, I always try to make sure that we get as close to that as we can. And then finally, part of the answer to that question is, if you have something that is your passion and is your purpose, and you're doing and it's not going to change, that's going to help the book be even more successful. What I mean by that is, say you're a sales coach right now. Well, if, in two years, there's a high potential that you're not going to be a sales coach anymore and you're going to move to being a marine biologist, then that book is not going to have the timeless nature that you. May want it to have. So it's thinking about if what you do now is going to still be something that you're still working on in a few years or more. Because if we're thinking about ROI books, are very long term. So if it matches what you're going to be doing in the long term, that's where you're going to, like, almost definitely see the return on investment there.
Marisa Huston 20:16
Yeah, that makes total sense. And so when you do ghost writing, do you specialize in a particular field, like, do you mostly find yourself working with entrepreneurs? Do you find yourself working with people who just want to tell their personal story? Is it everything in between?
Jordan Ring 20:31
Yeah, it's some of everything in between. Most of the time, I'm working with business minded people, entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, people that have been working on their business, you know, let's say three to five years. That's typically the timeframe that people are jumping in and wanting to write a book. Now, I wouldn't say no to someone who wanted to write their book, to start their podcast and to do everything, you know, at once under the sun. That's fine if they want to do that, but typically it's people that are in that phase.
Marisa Huston 20:55
Okay? That helps a lot. How do people get a hold of you and what's the first step they need to take to have a conversation with you and then reach out to you?
Jordan Ring 21:04
Yeah, so that's a great question. People can find me on my website, and that's www.jmring.com it's just basically my first initials and then my last name. So www.jmring.com and you can also connect with me on LinkedIn, that's where I'm most active. On there pretty much every day, posting and interacting and commenting and commenting and engaging with people. So definitely connect with me there and Marisa, if anyone that's listening on this podcast, if you DM me, I'd be more than happy to send you a free copy of Nonfiction Alchemy. All you have to do is ask be happy to send a PDF or a print out to anyone who's listening. And then the process is, we get on a call, we talk about your book idea. We talk about whether ghost writing would work, whether if you want to write the book yourself, whether you need help coaching, or if you say, Jordan, I'm going to do it all myself, and I just want someone I can email once in a while for support happy to do that as well. So the process isn't overly complicated, but it starts with that first call, and then depending on what type of service would be most helpful to you, I would write up the proposal, and then we would go from there to start that and of course, answering any questions that you would have.
Marisa Huston 22:01
Honestly, that's what I love about podcasting. It gives people an opportunity to understand the process before they take action. Because what happens is people are so afraid of being cornered. I guess you know what I mean? It's like, we offer, okay, free 30 minute consultation or whatnot, and then they're worried about, oh my gosh, I feel guilty if it's not a right fit or whatever, and they don't really know what to expect. And so a podcast gives them the opportunity to understand, like, what to expect, and then take that closer step so that then they can go, Okay, I think this sounds like what I'm looking for, and now I'm ready, because I heard Jordan. I kind of like what I'm hearing, and I'd like to have that conversation with him. It really isn't anything to be fearful about, but I think a lot of us are afraid that we're going to be wasting somebody's time, or there's all these things that go through your head. And so I think that the message is, talk to somebody if you're willing to do it, call Jordan, because you'll be able to direct them. You'll be able to decide if it's the right fit, what they're looking for, what you can do, and then take it from there.
Jordan Ring 23:03
Yep, at the very least, I can send you in the right direction, and it's never a waste of my time. I was enjoy talking to would be potential authors about their books? Always enjoyable for me, so.
Marisa Huston 23:12
Yeah, I'm sure you hear a lot of fun stories.
Jordan Ring 23:14
Oh, yeah, it's amazing. I am very grateful to get to do what I do for sure.
Marisa Huston 23:19
Yeah, never a dull moment, I'm sure I can't imagine, if I were a fly in the wall, what I would hear. It would be pretty exciting. You know, I think that's the other thing, Jordan, is we think our lives are boring, but everybody's got an interesting story.
Jordan Ring 23:32
Oh, everyone does the amount of stuff that I've learned from people that is, like, literally, my favorite part of my job is the stories I get to hear and the things that people share, that the life wisdom, oh man, it is so, so good, and people have way more than they realize inside of them. For sure.
Marisa Huston 23:47
It's incredible. And I think it's one of the things that motivates me to meet people like you. It's the same thing I get to know you, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know you did this or whatnot. And you have so much to share. For me, the joy comes from talking to the guests, because they have so much to share, and I enjoy sharing it with everyone else. And so, yeah, it's a win, win. It's wonderful. And I really appreciate you being here, Jordan. This was so enlightening.
Jordan Ring 24:10
I loved it. I love talking about this stuff. So Marisa, thank you so much for having me, and thank you for everyone who's listening to this. Super appreciate it.
Marisa Huston 24:17
Thank you, Jordan.
Outro 24:18
That's a wrap for this episode of live Blissed out. Thanks to Jordan ring for joining us and thanks for listening. If you have a question or comment for a future episode, all you have to do is go to www.speakpike.com/LBOVM or click the link in the show notes to leave a brief audio message. If you find value in our show, please visit www.liveblissedout.com to reach out, subscribe and share on social media. This show is made possible through listeners like you. Thank you. So long for now and remember to keep moving forward!