133 - The Meaning Of Life

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In this episode Nathanael Garrett Novosel will review the eight drivers of humans’ sense of meaning in our lives so we can live with more meaning and purpose.

 His book…The Meaning Of Life is a guide to finding your life’s purpose.

 He is also a contributing author of The X Factor… which discusses the spiritual secrets behind successful executives and entrepreneurs.

Nathanael is a professional researcher and advisor with over 20 years of experience studying individual and group behavior to understand how the world as we know it works and why.

He has spent much of his career using the insights from this research to help the world’s leading executives solve their most pressing organizational challenges and create their strategic plans. 

Noticing the common drivers of success in all areas of life, he decided to devote his research, problem-solving, and advisory skills to helping people live the best lives possible.

To learn more and get access his FREE resources, visit his website at www.yourmeaninginlife.com.

In this episode we cover:

00:02:38  Meaning Defined
00:04:37  Growth
00:05:42  Meaning & Purpose
00:07:33  Happiness
00:09:54  The Building Blocks For Meaning
00:14:21  The Paradox Of Choice
00:18:17  Choice
00:23:13  How Does It Work?
00:24:45  Pleasure & Fulfillment
00:28:49  Ethics

Thanks so much for tuning in again this week. I appreciate you  🙂

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Special thanks to Nathanael Garrett Novosel for being on the show.

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Chapters

• 2:38 Meaning Defined
• 4:37 Growth
• 5:42 Meaning & Purpose
• 7:33 Happiness
• 9:54 The Building Blocks For Meaning
• 14:21 The Paradox Of Choice
• 18:17 Choice
• 23:13 How Does It Work?
• 24:45 Pleasure & Fulfillment
• 28:49 Ethics

Transcript

Did You Know  0:03  
Did you know that having children can decrease your happiness but increase your sense of meaning? If happiness is the point of life, how can that be? Stay tuned to find out. 

Intro  0:14  
Hello, action taker. Welcome to Live Blissed Out. A podcast where I have inspirational and informational conversations with business owners and subject matter experts to help you get the scoop on a variety of topics. Tired of hesitating or making decisions without having the big picture? Wanna  be in the know? Then this is the place to go. I'm your host Marisa Huston. Helping you achieve bliss through awareness and action. So let's get to it. In this episode, Nathanael Garrett Novosel will review the eight drivers of human sense of meaning in our lives, so we can live with more meaning and purpose. His book, The Meaning Of Life, is a guide to finding your life's purpose. He is also a contributing author of The X Factor which discusses the spiritual secrets behind successful executives and entrepreneurs. Nathanael is a professional researcher and advisor with over 20 years of experience studying individual and group behavior to understand how the world as we know it works and why. He has spent much of his career using the insights from this research to help the world's leading executives solve their most pressing organizational challenges and create their strategic plans. Noticing the common drivers of success in all areas of life, he decided to devote his research, problem solving and advisory skills to helping people live the best lives possible. To learn more and get access to his free resources. visit his website at www.yourmeaninginlife.com. 

Ko-Fi  1:44  
If you'd like to support this podcast and engage with our community, become a professional tier member for backstage access and monthly networking opportunities at www.ko-fi.com/liveblissedout. 

Disclaimer  2:00  
The information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only. And any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast should not be considered professional advice. Nathanael, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  2:16  
Thank you for having me.

Marisa Huston  2:17  
What are we talking about? today?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  2:19  
We're talking about the biggest question that anyone will ask themselves. So, what does it mean of life?

Marisa Huston  2:23  
I'm glad you are helping us define that because people have different perceptions of what meaning is to them. And so I think it's important to start by defining that. When you say meaning, what exactly does that mean in our lives?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  2:38  
Sure, yeah. That's the first step of any scientific inquiry is to define your terms. There many definitions that people mean when they say meaning of life. The ones that are subjective that can't be answered, because they're subjective, by definition, are goals and ethics. So goals are like, what's the point of life? Like? What are you trying to do? Is anyone trying to do something? And that's subjective, you pick whatever goal you want. Do you want to, you know, build a house, or if you want to run a marathon, and that's for you to choose. There's no ultimate one single goal for everybody in life? And that's what people try to look for and you can't look for that, because it's subjective. Ethics are the other one. Like, what's the best way to live? And those ethics that are best are based on the goal. Ethics are subjective as well. The three that are objective, that you can define meaning, as are the definition of life, the purpose of life or intent of life and what makes life significant? And they all have the same answer, which is growth. You're welcome to pause this podcast and look up the definition in the dictionary, but capacity for growth is one of the core parts of the definition of life. So it's objectively growth is how you define life. Because self replication of organisms is how you define it. The second intent, all living organisms intend to grow, you avoid harm, and you see growth. That's Freudian stuff, right? But even from the basic Darwinian terms, the ones that live long enough to reproduce are the ones that carry on their genes. That all goes to growth, is that you don't die so you can grow. And then finally, the last one, significance, if you just look at any achievement that's ever been made, or any award that's ever been given out, you give the award to the people who made the achievement. And why do you give them the award? Because they accomplish the goal, because they grew into the people to accomplish the goal. You don't give the award to the thing. You know, you give it to the person. And we know that growth is what makes a journey or an outcome or an achievement significant. It's not the final thing. It's the whole person who became the person they could be to do the thing that no one could do before, and that's growth.

Marisa Huston  4:32  
So, if somebody isn't growing does that mean they have no meaning?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  4:37  
It's a good question. You're always growing because you're always changing. Because the only thing constant in this world is change and positive change is growth by definition. So everybody's growing in some way, shape or form, whether it's physically or spiritually or emotionally or socially or in relationships. The opposite of growth is being harmed. So yeah, there are times in your life where you might be experiencing, you know, catastrophic pain or harm. And that doesn't mean you don't have meaning. Your meaning is to get back to growth, you know? It's to recover, it's to rest, it's to protect yourself. And that has great significance as well. The purpose of that is to get back to growth, get back to thriving, to get back to being happy and fruitful. There's purpose in preventing yourself from being harmed but it's only through the lens of well, why would you bother doing it? It's so that you can get back to growth and happiness.

Marisa Huston  5:19  
I feel like we become different versions of ourselves. Sometimes we regress, and sometimes we progress. I'm not the same person I was a year ago or five years ago. We are learning growing, developing. I think that a lot of people define meaning as purpose. Could you share with us how meaning is different from purpose?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  5:42  
Yeah, so they are synonymous in the sense that it's one of those definitions, the intent or purpose of all living organisms is to grow. But purpose can also be the goal that we were talking about earlier, which is subjective. Which is like my purpose in life is to run a marathon or my purpose in life is to have children or something. There's this difference between like, the actual goal itself, and what drives the sense of meaning in your life. The sense of your meaning in your life does not just come from the outcome itself. It is from the journey. They've done a ton of research on this. They actually had people choose whether to get a reward, I think was like a concert or something, like if they wanted the concert to happen tomorrow, or a week from now or a year from now. And it turned out that contrary to everyone's belief that everyone's all about instant gratification, most people actually picked to have these pleasurable events be a week out, not the next day. Why? Because the anticipation of the event brought happiness, it brought a sense of excitement. And that anticipation actually delivered as much if not greater satisfaction, as did the event itself. So there's something to be said about this idea that you're building up this grand journey. Everything works in terms of stories, in terms of journeys. Why? Because you grow, you expand, things improve. And it's this combination of this idea that you're growing toward the outcome, and not just the outcome itself. The meaning comes from the whole thing. The purpose is defined as goal. It's just that final thing that you end up attaining at the end,

Marisa Huston  7:12  
We're always seeking happiness, that's kind of the buzzword that everybody looks for. They're always saying, be happy, whatever that thing is for you. You shared a statement with me that says that having children can decrease your happiness, but increase your sense of meaning. Well, if happiness is the point in life, then how can that statement be true? Can you explain that?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  7:33  
Yeah, well, there's a simple answer, happiness is not the meaning of life. And I know that's a big shock for a lot of people. But I will repeat it. It is objectively and absolutely no exceptions, not the meaning of life. Because everyone says that the meaning of life is to be happy and that's not true. Now, if you say the meaning of life is to find what makes you happy, that's a correct statement. That is actually correct. And you might go well didn't you just say the same thing? Well, the nuance is, it's the what makes you happy. Happiness is an indicator, it's to signal that you're doing growth enabling things. Yeah, you can hack it with like drugs and things. That's not real happiness. As we all know. It's not fulfillment. It's pleasure. It's a high. So, you can hack all that stuff. But let's assume you're not hacking it. Let's say you're truly shooting for things, then what makes you happy? It is things like helping people in need and being good at your job and stuff like that. Those are the things that truly make you fulfilled. And so having kids absolutely, it's not as pleasurable as maybe you want to go out with your friends and drink at happy hour. So maybe that's gonna give you more happiness or pleasure. But having your kids, maybe they're screaming, and you want to stab yourself in the eye, you know that there's meaning and significance in that because you're helping another living organism to grow and thrive, and you're fostering their growth. And that fostering your growth brings a ton of meaning that going out and drinking with your buddies is not going to bring. And that's the difference between happiness with a signal or indication which can be hacked through pleasurable things, and true meaning and fulfillment and those types of activities, which is all found through growth. And so while your kids can increase your growth, because you're fostering anothers growth, as well, as you're growing as a parent, as well, there's tons of growth happening with having kids. But yeah, your happiness in the moment of you know, you're on a beach, sipping a Long Island Iced Tea or something. Yeah, that's not happening. But your meaning goes up. 

Marisa Huston  9:13  
In your book, the meaning of life, you talk about eight concepts that are necessary to find your meaning and purpose. And what I enjoyed about the book was that it really laid it out so simply, and you used a lot of examples and exercises to help us really understand the why behind those concepts, how they all interrelate in our lives. I think we're looking for that, why. We're trying to understand. Because there's so much conflict that's taking place in the world, and we just don't get it like what we think is right should be right for everybody else, and why don't they get it? I think your book really helps us understand that. Would you share what those concepts are with our listeners?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  9:54  
Sure, yeah. And just so everyone knows, I took an evolutionary, psychology approach to meaning of life, because I wanted something objective and scientific. Because I read all the philosophies and religions and all these different perspectives and I actually found that they all cover these eight things. They all had points on them. And so of course, they have to because they all drive meaning. But I wanted to say like, what drives someone's sense of purpose. And that's objective, you can actually test that and see what drives it. But that's where it came from. So the eight things that actually drive your sense of meaning and purpose, are growth is one of them. That's the number one because that's the point. But you need these other seven because as you might know, someone might criticize and say, well, Nate, you can do 1000 finger curls today and 1001 finger curls tomorrow, and you have grown, but it won't be significant to you. So what about that? And it's like, well, yeah, you need the seven other things. So growth in and of itself is not the only thing that's going to give you a sense of meaning, it's just the primary piece. So the other seven, outside of growth are, experience. Experiences the medium through which growth occurs. You have to have experience to grow, you can't have one without the other. Desire, which drives you to have experiences that lead to growth. Belief, which sustains your continuing effort toward the outcome in the face of adversity. So it sustains your desire to have experiences to grow. Emotions, which are your signal, feedback. As we mentioned, happiness is feedback that you're growing and thriving, and not being harmed or being afraid of being harmed. Then ethics. Ethics are the rules you follow to attain your growth outcomes as best as possible without hurting anybody else. Then support. Support is the ability for multiple organisms to cooperate to achieve greater outcomes, growth outcomes than they could on their own. The reason why I use support not cooperation is because well, first of all, cooperation requires both ethics and support. But secondly, you can get support from things. I had to support from a Walkman when I was a kid cause it always made me feel better to listen to the radio while I was running. That was support for me, even though it wasn't a person or an organism. And then finally, choice. And basically the choices you make in your life shape your own destiny. You need to have the power and freedom of choice to live the life the way that you see fit. So you truly feel fulfilled and your best self.

Marisa Huston  11:59  
They're like building blocks. They all connect in some way to help you achieve the ultimate which is growth. 

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  12:06  
That's right. They all build on each other. That's why I put them in that order. Because you firstly have to understand the meaning of life is so I have to explain growth first. And then you have to explain how does growth occur? While through experience. Then you have to grow well, okay? How do you determine where to grow? We have to want to do it. That's your desire. And then well, how do you make sure you actually achieve it? Well you believe. Because if we don't believe you won't have any desire. You'll be depressed and think that nothing's worth doing at all. And then how do you know you're on the right track? Well, your emotions are telling you. If you feel good, and okay, you're doing the right thing. If you will feel bad, well, maybe we're not doing the right thing. And again, that's avoiding things like addictions and stuff, because that can hack your brain and then you'll feel good even though you're doing the wrong thing. Any indicator can be hacked, as anyone who's cheated on a test to get an A knows that you can hack any indicator. And then I put support and choice at the end. Because support is like a growth maximizer, growth multiplier. Any self help book or any kind of book where you want people to take action, you got to end on that action oriented note and choice is life's ultimate ability. Because otherwise, you're just a passive existence if you didn't have choice. If you just sat there. I always use the example of Clockwork Orange. I mentioned Clockwork Orange, and about how he was strapped into the movie theater chair and had his eyes pried open and watching the screen and he couldn't move. I mean, imagine living life like that? Like that's not a life. That's not a meaningful, fulfilling life. That's being forced to do something and even having your attention forced upon you. You need choice to feel that sense of agency, to feel meaningful and fulfilment as well. So, that's why it's in that order. And then it ends with a choice so that people realize that they have the power of choice to direct their own lives and they should not take that for granted. Because it's the key to their fulfilment.

Marisa Huston  13:37  
Choice is really important. I think sometimes we forget how many choices we have until we don't. If you just take the example of what's been happening in the world in the last two years. Let's just look at the shortage of supplies now. You know I hear people complaining because they go to the grocery store, and let's say they have their favorite cereal and now that particular brand is not there, and that's the cereal, they've eaten their whole lives. They get very emotional and upset about it, because now they can't choose it. They're forced to take something else that they didn't want. We live in a world where a lot of people are living in that state. So are you saying that those individuals that are not given choice are then deprived of meaning?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  14:21  
It's a great question. There's something called The Paradox of Choice in psychology where actually the more options you have, the less happy you are. And Dan Gilbert, and there's another person who was doing that, Barry Schwartz, I think? I might be messing up his name. But, they did this power of choice and how actually having fewer choices makes you happier. But again, that was happiness and not meaning. The reason why that is, is that the more choices you have, the more you stress out about it. I didn't think it was true until it happened to me. I went to the deodorant section. And I'm not really tied to any brand at least I wasn't at the time. And so I looked around and there were 100 Different deodorants. Like, how do I even begin to pick? And I just stood there for a while and after a couple of minutes I was like, ah I'll think about it and I'll come back later. And I couldn't believe it. I'd literally just done what the study showed was that the more options you had, the more likely you're just give up and not pick anything. And I was like, I don't believe that. Like, well, so there is this idea that the more choices you have, the more overwhelming it gets. And that's totally true. But again, that's happiness that you get overwhelmed. But the thing is, having no choice is the ultimate depriver. Because if you don't have the power to pick what you want, you feel a sense of, I don't truly get to live my best life. Just to be clear, though, because the difference between like options and the power of choice. Options are the number of things you get to choose between. So you mentioned cereal, like my grocery store doesn't have any more. I know that that's like. I still can't find Total Raisin Bran for some reason and many grocery stores. I'm not sure why. That was what I ate when I was a kid. And was like why can't I find it? The loss of choice, though, it's really the loss of your own agency to be able to make a choice is more important than like a specific option being out of your control. I'll give you an example. The best one is always athletes, because athletes, they live their whole lives training to be the best in a certain field, unless they get a career ending injury. Now, if that's the only option they ever considered in their entire lives, and they that was their quote, unquote, choice and now that choice has been taken away from them, immediately, you're right. Your sense of meaning and purpose in life has just been completely sucked away. Because like, oh, I was a baseball player, or I was a football player and now I can't do any of that. And now everything I ever cared about or loved has been taken for me. And you know, people get really depressed, and they can start doing drugs and all this other stuff. And they can really lose their sense of meaning and purpose. However, just because an option is gone, doesn't mean that meaning has to be gone, because your power of choice is still there, even if that option is gone. There are always those stories of people who maybe didn't cut it in the NFL, or maybe got injured and then they became one of the greatest coaches of all time. Those options are still there. You could be a coach, you could be an analyst, you could be a journalist, you could be a sports writer, you could go into physical therapy and help other athletes. There are literally millions of jobs in that discipline, outside of just being that particular position player that you were. While losing that option can really take a huge shot at your sense of meaning and purpose, the only thing that's going to bring your meaning and purpose back is using or exercising your power of choice to select a different option and go after that one and be the best you can there. I think I just answered your question with both answers. But on one hand, it does suck away, losing your options can suck away your meeting. But on the other hand, your power of choice, as long as you have it, you always be able to pick other options and find meaning in those.

Marisa Huston  17:29  
In my mind, as you were explaining that I'm thinking there's a lot of people, for example, that are born into families where the parents have had a business forever, and now they expect their children to take it over. And they don't give them the option to try something else. Maybe they were passionate about music. But no, music isn't where you need to be. This is our family business and you've got to do this. Or there are societies, for example, that are set up in such a way where they tell you you're going to be a gymnast, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be whatever they say you're going to be and it's not what brings you joy or meaning or you have no interest, as you said, in those things. Your desire is not there and so that component is missing. How do those people then find meaning under those circumstances?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  18:17  
Well, you're combining two concepts, choice and ethics. Because everyone thinks that ethics are these absolute objective, universal things that have never changed in history. And that's obviously not true. The truth is that what's ethical is what everyone can agree upon. What the rules that people can agree upon are what the rules are. And that's what is considered ethical. And then one says, oh, no, that's not true. It's objective. It's like, okay, I'll give you an example. And that's the example I give in the book, which is, is it ethical to make your kids go into the same field or business as you? And everyone today says, oh, how can you possibly do that? This is terrible. But then you when you realize back in the Middle Ages, or whatever. Let's say, your parents had 10 kids or something, and you have to feed them all. And you know, it's hard to succeed in a small business. Let's say you're a blacksmith or something. and then there's the eldest son, for example, is expected to take over as a blacksmith and you know, all the I want to go dance. If you don't take over that business, your entire family might starve to death. So it is ethical in that case, to expect that person to take it over to help support the family. Today, of course, with the luxury we have of anyone be able to do whatever they want, then yeah, it's kind of unethical to kind of force someone to do that. You got to see how the rules and what's ethical, right or wrong is all relative. But to your point about like, what does someone do in that situation? There are a couple of things. One is that just because you have to do one thing, maybe you have to kind of take a job for a while to feed your family or whatever, that doesn't mean that that's the only choice you can ever make for the rest of your life. You can say okay, I'm gonna do this. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to train someone else while I run the business, and I'll make that person the manager, and I'll be the owner and then I'll go do something else. Or it could be, I'm going to do is temporarily I'm gonna go back to school, I'm going to go school nights. Or it could be I'm going to do this just to make money because it makes me more money than any thing else I could do, but in my free time, I'm going to read a book, or I'm going to spend time with my family. And so those things are all options that they have that either you can stick with what you're doing to do the right thing, and then find other ways in the future. The choice is yours, to really do it. But it's a combination of choice and ethics, whether it's ethical or not for you to feel obligated to do it. And then the choice that you have for how to pursue your own objectives while making sure you don't hurt anybody, or to make sure you support or take on the responsibility you have for others.

Marisa Huston  20:28  
And you even mentioned in the book that ethics change, depending on cultures as well. I know firsthand, there are cultures that feel like they have to have a lot of children primarily because they expect the children to take care of them. There's no social security net, there's no one to help them. The kids are it. And so their mentality is not only are the kids going to help us with our, let's say farm, or maybe they're planting rice, or maybe they're growing chickens, or whatever it is that they're doing. And the kids are part of that process. And then they're expected to care for them in their old age. And that is just culturally accepted and the way things are. And that's today, that's not a long time ago. It's still happening. And so every culture is different. And a lot of us here may not understand when we visit other countries. And we may think how could they do this? It's wrong. These kids should have more choices and the ability to do what they want with their lives. But they're not necessarily unhappy. 

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  21:28  
Yeah, exactly. Some people they live with their extended family their entire lives, as are some cultures. Again, it's not right or wrong, it's what people can agree to, or choose to do for themselves. And in the states, for example, is very independent. And so people live in nuclear families, and that's the core of the United States culture. Every culture is different, they're gonna have different ethics in ways that they think our best. We live in a world in which the older you get, the less capable you somehow become before you die and something has to happen with that. And so how people are taken care of when they reach that state? And for some people, it's you live in extended families, and so the family takes care of them. And others, it's, I hate to say this, but like put them in a home. For other societies it's a social security type system, or maybe a combination of that. So, it differs a lot. And one of my favorite parts of the book is I don't claim to have all the answers. I don't tell you what ethics to hold, I don't tell you what the best system, whatever it is. I tell you that this is how it works and then you can figure it out for yourself.

Marisa Huston  22:21  
And that's what I love about it, because it just really helps you understand. And I think that's what we need. Because it can be very frustrating ehen we make judgments. We see how other people operate, and then we think they're wrong, and just don't understand why they think that way. Like how is that even possible? Going back to this example that we were just talking about, it goes both ways. A lot of people in those cultures, they look at Americans, for example, and they say, How could these kids put their kids in an old folks home. Parents should belong with the family, always together taking care of each other. And they don't understand that and they think it's cruel. Everybody's got different perspectives and I think that understanding the why and understanding where people are coming from is so important, because it helps us move forward without judgment. We're saying, here's what's happening and now you as an individual have to decide your path to find your own meaning.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  23:13  
Exactly. And that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book. There were a few reasons and one of them was that it drove me nuts that it didn't seem that people were out there helping to provide useful advice to help people think through how to figure things out for themselves without injecting their own beliefs into the recommendations. Like this is the right way to live. In fact, I've got little nitpicky beefs with different philosophies that I've read over the years. And one of them was the classics around like living the good life, or a life well lived. And I think they were even asking the wrong question. They're asking that. Granted, we have different goals. So I mean, it's not the wrong question for them but it was wrong question for me. For them it's like, what's the best way to live? And when I looked at it, and said, Well, I don't care about the best way to live. I care about how it works, so I can figure out the best way to live. And so I think that's the proper question. And so that's why I did it the way I did it. But you know, not everyone has a tolerance for that. I mean, every chapter of my book starts out with single celled organisms and how they evolved into humans and how that concept evolved, so that you can understand why life has these concepts in the first place, and how they apply and how they work so that you can then use them in your life. But not everyone has the patience for that. There's like Nate just tell me what to do. I'm like, Okay, well, sorry. You know, there are plenty of people, go read plenty of books, they'll tell you what to do, and tell you how you should live your life and I'm not one of them. Sorry, I'm not gonna do it. But some people need that some people don't.

Marisa Huston  24:26  
It appealed to me because you weren't telling me how to live you were helping me understand so that through that understanding, I can decide what path I want to take. And I found that very refreshing. When you wrote your book, and you had that in mind, what are some of the top things perhaps that you found that people struggle with?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  24:45  
Oh, man, yeah, there are plenty. Some of my personal favorites. The happiness one is hard. And I'm glad we started this whole thing with the definitions of things because I found that most people disagree because they can't agree on the meaning of things. Like that's literally the number one disagreement that people have. They Believe in different gods. It's like, okay, well, what is God? Who is God? Like you didn't even bother to define it yet and you're arguing over it. People go, hey Nate, you know, that's not the point, though. What is the real point? The point of life that to me is blah, blah, blah, And they start talking about the goal that they have. And I'm like, Okay, well, I'm using a different definition. Because yours is subjective, I can't give you an objective definition of that. So like, you're equivocating, basically. So I'm a big believer in that. And one of the things is happiness. As I mentioned a little bit ago, happiness can be either pleasure or fulfillment. And it's just the way the English language works, that all that rolls up into a word happy, your happiness. And so people think, oh, I'm supposed to be happy. One of two things happens. One, is they're like, oh, I want to be happy, I want to be happy and these things make me happy, and they identify all these pleasures, oh I want to go drink, or I'm gonna go do drugs. This stuff makes you happy and that's what's the goal in life. But that's pleasure. That's not fulfillment, that kind of happiness. So by conflating the term the two types, they then seek things that they think are gonna make them happy and then they are wondering when they don't. Like when you get withdrawal, and you feel miserable, and you hate everything, and you lose all your friends when you do drugs. And it's like, what, what's going on? So this is what's gonna make you happy. And we're supposed to be happy. It's like, no, no, no. And so they think happiness and point life, and then they go in the wrong direction. They seek pleasure and highs and the next life high, and not focusing on fulfillment. And so it's that misunderstanding what the pursuit of happiness is. The pursuit of happiness, which is written in the Declaration of Independence, is the pursuit of happiness. It's not to be happy. You don't have a right to be happy. And it's not necessarily just go do things that make you happy. But like, strictly it's about finding what in life you enjoy doing? Is it helping other people? Do you like a certain sport or activity or hobby. Those are the things you're looking for. And most people when they are seeking pleasure, they're watching TV, they're getting addicted to substances, they're gambling, They're doing things that's giving them those highs. But what they should be seeking is growth, enabling activities, which gives you that pure, natural, high and fulfillment of accomplishment, and that sense of progress, and that sense of meaning, significance, growth, all those things. That's the right kind of thing to seek. And most people in today's society, because everyone is trying to get you to buy their product, or watch their show or do these things, they say that get this thing and you will be happy. They're kind of conditioning you to say, well, this thing will give me pleasure, then I'll be happy. And it's like, no, no, they're messing with your mind. They're brainwashing you to buy the product, right? The reason why that thing makes you happy is because it either helps as part of an activity that you enjoy, like being with your family. Like, I'm not saying alcohol is bad. I'm saying that if you are with friends and family, and you're drinking alcohol, and it's enhancing that experience. If you were sitting alone and drinking the alcohol, probably not so happy enabling, as being with a friend. So it's that friendship, and that enhances it. And so there's no doubt there's value in certain products and things that can actually make your life better. But don't conflate that with the actual delivering of the pleasure of the happiness in the natural fulfillment you get from living a life well lived, meaning full of growth and thriving and being with people and that sort of thing. So that's what I think the biggest one that people get wrong. There are a few others, but I'll stop there.

Marisa Huston  27:52  
It's really important to understand that that is why addiction is so scary, in a sense, because whatever addiction you may have, whether it's food, whether it's gambling, whether it's drugs, whatever it is you choose to be addicted to, it's a temporary high. Every time you have that meal, you're looking to the next meal, every time you have that drink, you're looking to the next drink, because you're feeling it at the moment but then once it subsides, you want more. And shopping, even as an addiction. People like to go buy stuff because it gives them this special feeling of oh, I have this new thing that's going to help make my life better. And then when things go back to normal, that gets set aside. And you even see that with children. When you buy them a toy, they play with it for a few minutes and then it's on to the next thing, they forget about it. Because that quick high that they get from that moment goes away, and then what's left? Nothing. And you don't have that meaning that we're all here to fulfill in our lives.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  28:49  
Another one I think is important is that ethics are necessary for meaning but they're not meaning in and of themselves. I'll give you two examples, one of a good use of it and then one of the misinterpreted use of it. The good use of it is everyone knows about the steroid era, my favorite baseball player, one of the best of all time didn't get in the Hall of Fame. And the reason is, it's exactly what makes ethics part of meaning. Because the answer is, well, if they cheated, then they don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. And so what you're really saying, let's interpret that into the words that I use in the book, that if meaning of life has significance and significance as growth, and ethics is important to do it, you have to do it ethically, meaning you follow rules to maximize your growth without hurting anybody else. Cheating is a form of succeeding at someone else's expense. And taking steroids is unfairly enhancing your ability so that you can perform better than other people in an unnatural way. And other people didn't have that opportunity because it was a banned substance. And so basically, if you cheat, then therefore it takes away the significance of that accomplishment. Because you didn't do it yourself, you had help and that other people didn't have so you had a leg up and so therefore that accomplishment doesn't count. And there are two camps. So there's the people who think they do belong and people don't. People don't will argue it's an ethical thing. You cheated. If you were unethical, that shouldn't be rewarded. Then other people make it seem not ethical, but like not unethical, if that makes sense. So like, oh, everybody was doing it, and it was still significant achievement, and they still had to swing the bat and all that other stuff, right? Those people are making an argument that it's not great but it wasn't unethical in the sense that they were like, six games People have different angles on the ethics of it and that changes whether it's significant or not that accomplishment, right? So, that's a good use of ethics, because you use ethics to figure out whether something is meaningful or significant to you, and all this other stuff. If you don't have ethics, it takes away the significance of what you're doing. If you cheat, if you hurt people to get your outcome. But then there's a bad use of ethics. And this is happening so much today. There are people who follow a certain set of ethics, and then think that they're better than everyone else as a result, and they shame everybody who doesn't think the way that they do. And so here, they're thinking that ethics are meaning. There's an old joke about a vegan, a P90x'er and a Libertarian walk into a bar, how do you know? Because they've already told you. So there's a joke like that. And so those are the people who are super vocal about it, right? Those kinds of people who live by certain ethics, and are super vocal about it, and who can't shut up about it. Those are the people who then want to force those ethics on to everybody else and thinks everyone should be just like them. There's a switch that you're making between I live this way, and it makes me feel happy, which is fine. You're welcome to live however you want. And whatever makes you happy is good from a meaning and fulfillment standpoint. But then if you try to make everyone live like you, and maybe they don't have the same situation, maybe different ethics, they have to hold for various reasons and then you look down on them and say negative things about them. And let's say you become a YouTuber, and just start making fun of everybody who disagrees with you, and just says that we're all idiots. Now, are you really happy and fulfilled anymore? I would say probably not. You sound like a miserable person that no one likes. Now you're using ethics to be the meaning in life. And it's not. I can give you one example of why it's not and I can prove it. I lived my entire life trying to follow all the rules. I jokingly called and said I had perfect child syndrome because I was raised by a single mother. And she looked miserable all the time. She didn't like her job when I was growing up. And so I did everything humanly possible to never do anything wrong. I never stayed out late, I never did drugs or smoked or any of that stuff. I never got bad grades. I tried to be perfect so that I wouldn't make my mother any more stressed than she was. And you know what, no one cared. They were glad I wasn't bothering them but they didn't care. Like as soon as I did anything remotely, that seemed wrong. I wasn't actually doing anything wrong, they yell at me. And it's like, all of a sudden, all that went out the window. This is the truth is that ethics are important to meaning because they can take away the significance if you don't do it ethically, like if you cheat and you know, you cheated, then you don't feel like you actually won. And that's true. You don't feel like you've really achieved it. And at the same time, it's not the meaning of life to be ethical at all times, and that you're better than other people because you end up not being as fulfilled if you treat it that way.

Marisa Huston  28:49  
Better, okay, in what capacity, right? Because what somebody defines as better is different for somebody else. If you think about just basic interests that we have. Who are you to say that if you like to ride motorcycles, for example, that the other person should ride motorcycles too. What if they don't like it? If that person does not believe that they can ride a motorcycle, or they don't have the desire to ride the motorcycle or when they think about the motorcycle, they have bad emotions, why would the other person who enjoys it think that that is what's good for them? And I think we need to understand and appreciate the fact that we have different interests for a reason. I think it's part of the way we're supposed to exist. We need that brain surgeon, we need that EMT to come help us when we need help. Everybody is not going to be able to contribute in the same way.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  33:27  
Exactly. And it's a live and let live kind of thing. Yeah, you want to establish rules as a society to make sure you maximize people's potential for growth and minimize their potential for harm, or to be harmed. You can always give recommendations. I mean, there's nothing wrong with giving advice to people. Some people think, well, I have the best way of living so I'm going to try to get everyone on my side to live in this way. And it's like, that's not the point of life. The point of life is to find those growth opportunities, where you want to be better in your life, and to go after that, and ethics are just like what's the right way, or the best way that will work for me. And there's what I call positive ethics in the book, the right way to approach something to achieve a goal. And yeah, you give people advice but if they find a better way to do it for them, that doesn't mean you're wrong, doesn't mean that they think you're an idiot. They're just gonna approach it differently and you have to accept that. And say, okay, well, as long as they're not hurting anybody, then they can live their life as they see fit.

Marisa Huston  34:16  
Given that. And Nathaniel, what do we do in terms of activities to help us apply what you shared in your book, so that we can achieve that meaning that we're all seeking?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  34:28  
Yeah, I mean, it's really just taking those eight areas and put them all together. First step is to identify areas where you'd like to grow. Imagine yourself being better in that area, and if you'd be happier if you were, and that's your growth area. Step two is then to identify experiences that can help you achieve that growth and write those down and find a way to get to do those. Third is to build desire for them because you need to get motivated, right? Because let's say you want to be muscular and you have to go the gym to do that but you don't want to go to the gym. Well, you got to build a desire for that. If you don't go to the gym, you're not gonna be muscular. So you got to build desire for those experiences to achieve that goal. Then you have to build the belief in it. I'll give you example, I've been a pretty skinny guy my whole life. I'm not going to be Arnold Schwarzenegger tomorrow so like, that belief is gonna hold me back. If I let that belief say, well, I'm not gonna go bother to try because I can never be Arnold Schwarzenegger, well, then I'm never gonna go to the gym. So, you have to have enough belief to keep going forward to achieving that goal. Then you have to use your emotions and understand how they work as feedback. So, make sure that you know that if you feel good, then that's positive feedback that you're doing the right thing from a growth perspective, and you're improving. And if you feel bad, if you're doing something wrong, then you'll know. You'll either feel pain, or you feel guilty if you're hurting someone else. Ethics, make sure you follow the right rules. Again, don't hurt anybody and then follow the best rules to achieve your goal. Support, get help. And then choice, make sure that you're making the choices every day that are going to get you closer and closer to that goal. And you'll make the hard choices, right? The ones where you might have to sacrifice one area to achieve a goal and another. You do those eight things, you'll be on your way to finding meaning.

Marisa Huston  35:55  
It's not simple to apply. Because there's so many things you have to consider for each thing that you want to go after. But, you lay it out in such a way that there's a path that you can take. And once you identify exactly what that is you can replicate it. The concept here is that we need to step back from our lives. Most of us are just living robotic lives. We don't give ourselves time to reflect to say, how did that go? What do I want to change? Was this good? Was this not good? Why is this happening? We're not asking those questions and really stepping back. Because we're in the moment. We're just busy thinking about, oh, I gotta pack lunch for my kids and I gotta go to the soccer game, and I gotta meet friends after work, or I've got to report on this project that I'm working on. And it's just constant demand on our day to day lives that we tend to not look at where we're at and where we want to go.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  36:48  
Exactly, yeah. But if you do those eight things, you'll find more meaning in life. It's as scientific as two plus two equals four man. You have those eight things, you'll find your life to be meaningful. You don't have those things you want. It's that simple.

Marisa Huston  37:00  
How do people get ahold of you and learn more about your book and everything that you do?

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  37:05  
My website is your www.yourmeaninginlife.com and I have a blog on there. The book you can find it wherever books are sold, Amazon, of course, being the top line. It's called The Meaning Of Life - A Guide To Finding Your Life's Purpose. And the full author name is Nathanael Garrett Novosel on there. And then I also have social media and life the book. And then I also have another book as a multi author book called The X Factor. And my chapter is on how to find meaning and how to build more care and what you do as a profession. You can find them on Amazon or wherever you prefer to get your books.

Marisa Huston  37:36  
Nathanael, thank you so much for being here. This was so eye opening and I just appreciate you taking the time to share this with us.

Nathanael Garrett Novosel  37:44  
Thank you so much for your time and thanks, everyone for listening.

Outro  37:46  
That's a wrap for this episode of Live Blissed Out. Thanks to Nathanael Garrett Novosel for joining us and thanks for listening. If you have a question or comment for a future episode, all you have to do is go to www.speakpipe.com/lbovm or click the link in the show notes to leave a brief audio message. If you find value in our show, please visit www.liveblissedout.com to reach out subscribe and share on social media. This show is made possible through listeners like you. Thank you. So long for now and remember to keep moving forward!