045 - The Power Of The Pivot

Joining me is Joseph Young, founder and director of architecture at Kuvio Creative, a global digital services agency that uses innovation to solve their clients’ toughest problems. 

Joseph oversees a team of website designers and developers, marketers, and operations gurus.

They strive to be more innovative, efficient and cost-effective than their competitors while caring for their team members and giving back.

Before starting Kuvio, Joseph was a software developer and solutions provider at Gwynn Group and EF Johnson Technologies.

To learn more, visit www.kuv.io

Receive a FREE review of your app or your website or your business and obtain their input on those potential pivots that you could make to your online presence or to your product to better help you reach your customers. You can just go to www.kuv.io/contact, mention that you heard Joseph on this podcast and leave a note.  They'll be in touch to schedule a call with you.

In this episode we will cover:

• The Importance Of Pivoting
• Macro Pivots
• Learning From Failure
• Run Experiments
• Finding Your Own Path
• Trying & Tweaking
• Micro Pivots
• Links
• Level Of Risk
• A Different Perspective
• A Leap Forward
• Twitter's Pivot
• Being Stuck

Thanks so much for tuning in again this week. I appreciate you 🙂

Have some feedback you’d like to share? Leave a note in the Feedback section.

Special thanks to Joseph Young for being on the show.

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Transcript

Marisa Huston : 0:00

This is Episode 45 on the Live Blissed Out podcast. Did you know that the average lifespan of today's multinational Fortune 500 size corporation is 40 to 50 years? The average lifespan of a small business is eight and a half years. This is the danger of sticking with the status quo. Hello action takers. Welcome to Live Blissed Out. A podcast where I have authentic conversations with business owners and subject matter experts to help us get the scoop, the 411 and the lowdown on a variety of topics. Tired of hesitating or making decisions without having the big picture? Wanna be in the know? Then this is the place to go. I'm your host Marisa Huston. Helping achieve bliss through awareness and action. Thanks for joining me. The information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only. And any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast should not be considered professional advice. Joining me is Joseph Young, founder and director of architecture at Kuvio Creative, a global digital services agency that uses innovation to solve their client's toughest problems. Joseph oversees a team of website designers and developers, marketers and operations gurus. They strive to be more innovative, efficient and cost effective than their competitors while caring for their team members and giving back. Before starting Kuvio, Joseph was a software developer and solutions provider at Gwynn Group and EF Johnson Technologies. To learn more visit www.kuv.io. Are you ready for some pampering after being stuck at home? At Antoine Du Chez Salon and Spa located in Centennial CO, the focus is on you the minute you walk through the door. With their captivating atmosphere and excellent customer service, Antoine Du Chez continues to deliver timeless experiences for every guest. You're invited to relax, unwind and experience their customized spa services. Choose from facial treatments, massage services, waxing, nail services and other seasonal offerings. Antoine Du Chez has an amazing offer for Live Blissed Out podcast listeners in Colorado. Simply mentioned this podcast at the time of booking to receive $60 towards a cut and color and $80 towards a massage and facial. This offer is available for first time guests only. To learn more, visit their website at www.antoineduchez.com. Hi, Joseph. It's wonderful to have you here today.

Joseph Young : 2:38

Hi, it's great to be here.

Marisa Huston : 2:40

I'm excited to talk to you today about the power of pivoting in terms of business. And I think that this is an important conversation to have because pivoting really relates to moving in a different direction, which then requires change some sort of re-evaluation of where you're going and how to get there. And that can be a scary proposition for a lot of people because, let's face it change is something that scares most of us because it's the unknown. It's something we haven't tried before. And so we tend to shy away from it. Why do you feel it's so important to pivot, particularly in the business world today?

Joseph Young : 3:19

So I think that the best way that I've sort of thought about pivots is that a pivot is an experiment that you are undertaking that sort of goes against the world that you are currently used to in some sort of way. And there are different sizes of pivots. It could be I'm completely unsatisfied with everything around my world and so I'm going to completely change everything, which is the largest pivot you can possibly imagine. And they're also a little micro experiments that you can run that have less risk, but could also reveal things that would otherwise not be revealed if you never actually ran that experiment. And so that's why I feel like it's important because it's very easy for us to get stuck in our ways and to get use to what is around us and hope that as long as we stick with it that just the very act of sticking with it will produce a different result or the original result that we thought would be produced rather than continually running experiments. The thing that I've learned through the act of pivoting over the last few years has been that you just won't know if it works until you try it. There's no amount of guessing that you can do in your own head that will tell you whether something or not will work. And so it's paradoxical. But the easiest way to figure out if something will work is to just start going down a path of trying it and then seeing how the world around you and the universe at large reacts to that new experiment. If you're listening, it will tell you if it is working or not.

Marisa Huston : 4:55

And I do like the fact that you're looking at it from a micro and macro perspective because I think that oftentimes we bite off more than we can chew. We think that it's bigger than it really needs to be and everything starts with a step. And so even if you're making a little pivot, you can move in a different direction to see whether or not something is working as opposed to moving the entire ship all at once, because that scares people.

Joseph Young : 5:21

And it scares people to such a degree that a lot of those larger movements even in my own personal life, only end up happening when we are back up against the wall. When there's no other choice that we can make and everything is up against us and the universe forces us to make that macro pivot. But once we do that, we end up in a new place where things are new and experiments are being run and all of these things. I'm sure a lot of us can think back in our lives of some time when we have been backed against the wall and had to go in a different way but then looked back wondering why it took that for us to be able to go in that different way. You know, if only I had done that way a couple of years ago, but it's just hard, right? Especially at the macro level, it's one of the hardest things that I feel like we can do as human beings is make large moves to try and change things around.

Marisa Huston : 6:18

Yeah, so we then procrastinate, we sit there going, why didn't I try this sooner? You're only saying that because it probably was successful. But had it been a failure, then you start to ask yourself, why did I do this in the first place? So it's that fear of making a decision. And because we're afraid of that decision, we procrastinate.

Joseph Young : 6:37

One of the most significant lessons that I've learned is to reframe the idea of failure into something different. So any experiment that you run as long as you have run it, my feeling is that there is really no such thing as failure as long as you have gotten some sort of data as the result of your experiment. And so the thing failure itself that most people call failure is just data that tells you Oh, well, maybe this is not the right way to go. And so you don't do the same thing again. So it's a lesson that you've learned. But it's really a success in a way because now you have actually pushed forward to running that experiment and you see that that particular experiment in the way that you've set it up did not work. And that has now taught you that okay, well, I've done this experiment now it's time to run some other experiments that are different and keep doing that process over and over again until you find things that become less of a quote, failure, you know, unless of a just lessons learned and start moving some of the mountains that you will actually move.

Marisa Huston : 7:42

You're basically reframing your mindset. You're looking at it from a different perspective, rather than fearing failure. You're looking at it as I need to try something to see if this might be the best decision I ever made. And how do you know if you didn't try and so it would be equivalent to going to a restaurant and saying I don't want to eat that. But you've never had that meal before. Well, how do you know it doesn't taste good? You have to go through the process. And I think it's because we're scared of the unknown.

Joseph Young : 8:10

Yeah. And because we're all living in our own personal universe, and we feel like our journey through life is a journey of learning about the world that we're living in, you know, that we're inhabiting for the time that we're here. And there is just too much universe for us to have in our heads. But our own personal goals is always to figure out as much as we can about the universe that's possible, but you know, we're also very tiny compared to the universe. And so the only real power that we have is to run experiments that we feel like we could be onto something right we have a hypothesis for something that could be different about the world that we're living in. But instead of trying to amass the entire universe's worth of knowledge into our brains so that we can try and make that decision which is I feel like something that also It leads to a lot of procrastination or analysis paralysis, you know, is another term for it, we just start and put that experiment out into the world and let the world tell us Let the actual reality of the world around us react to that experiment that we're running and it becomes the teacher that we were trying to make ourselves be.

Marisa Huston : 9:22

And I also think that the problem that a lot of us have is that we are moving forward, right, we have a plan, we're going for it and it may not be going the way that we want but because we put so much of ourselves and our energy into it, we don't know when to stop. It's almost like you just feel like if you stop that means you failed. Like all that time that you put into it was for nothing. And you're so fearful of that. Let's pretend that you are going to a networking event. You've been going to this networking event and you like the people in it and you enjoy their company and you're learning new things and it's great. Aside from the fact that you're having fun, from a business standpoint, you've never really been able to quantify its effectiveness. And yet you keep going year after year after year. And I think part of the reason when you ask people why do you keep doing this? Why haven't you looked at other opportunities or other networking platforms? The reason being is because they say, well, but I like the people and I'm used to going to this event, and I don't want to give up on it. So that balance between how do I know when it's the right time to let go and move into something else? I think that's also a challenge for people.

Joseph Young : 10:35

Absolutely. And it feels like just a random gut instinct decision in a lot of ways, right? Because it feels like oh, well, I don't have enough information to know, you know, whether I should just completely cut ties and move on to a new networking event or do something completely different from networking. But I think the thing that we have to realize is that we have not given ourselves the opportunity to compare the thing that we're doing against any other thing and so we don't have that information until we start that new experiment in exactly the same way that we started that experiment that took us to that networking event in the first place. That thing itself succeeded in some ways and didn't work in some ways, right? Like, as you mentioned, you met a lot of people and you sort of grew your own personal network and you have fun, but it didn't translate into business things. Well, why is that? You could go through the analysis of that and say, Oh, well, you know, maybe I just need to stick with it a little bit longer. Maybe I'm need to learn how to be better at networking. And it always feels like it's, oh, maybe I should just do something different because I see other people in that networking group somehow succeeding in ways that I would like to succeed, but it's not working for me and why right? So we tend to compare ourselves against others instead of comparing ourselves to other experiments that we are running ourselves and find the path for ourselves. Because every person is different, right? Every human that we come across has a different life story and has a different reason why they are closing business deals and doing all of these things. And you're sort of looking at them from afar going, why are they like this, but in the same way that we have a very unique and complex life experience, so do they. And so to the people that they are talking to, right, anybody can have a 10,000 page book written on all the things that they've gone through in their entire life. And none of us can know why that particular combination of their particular life journeys are making a particular experiment succeed for them and not for us.

Marisa Huston : 12:38

You are so on it because it reminds me kind of a recipe, you take one little ingredient out and it changes everything. And it doesn't always apply to all of us. everybody's life has a different path and a different combination. And so you're looking at what other people are doing, but it could just be one little tweak. Maybe that particular scenario had nothing to do with the actual event, but it had to do with how you react in the event or what you're doing. The activities that are taking place for you. And so oftentimes we have to look at ourselves, we have to look at our environment, we have to look at the actual activity, and then see what combinations work so that we can get the results that we're looking for. And that requires a little tweaking, and a little self awareness.

Joseph Young : 13:20

And those results are very personal, because they are the sum total of everything that you are. And the experiments that you run, just by their very nature have to be different experiments and will have different results than anybody else running those experiments, because the ingredients, which primarily include ingredients of your own personal journey, are going to be different and you're going to have your own continuing analogy that if you're running these experiments, just constantly trying and tweaking, like maybe this dish would be good if it had a little bit of black pepper. Let me think about that. That sounds like it would be a good idea, but how do you know until you actually put some black pepper on that dish?

Marisa Huston : 14:01

Yes, and how much black pepper because how much you want is going to be different from how much I want. I really love your analogy of experimentation because I think if we just look at it from that perspective, we're less fearful. We're trying new things, because you don't know what the end result's gonna be, and it can be something really good. And rather than worrying about how it might not work, think about the fact that if it doesn't work, it's a lesson. And now you can start again, you can look at it and say, all right, well, I put too much black pepper this time. Now I'm going to try this other ingredient until you get a formula or recipe that works for you. And so thinking of it from that perspective, makes it a little less scary.

Joseph Young : 14:39

Absolutely. And that way you don't have to completely change everything right. If the black pepper didn't work for you the answer is not hiking into the middle of the mountain somewhere with a camp stove and thinking that your entire idea of how to cook that recipe in the first place must be wrong. It might just be a black pepper. But you won't know if it's just the black pepper or not until you have reevaluated the way that you approach the tweaks in these recipes. If you start from scratch on this giant recipe and spend hours and hours and hours or days following this recipe by somebody else who it worked great for them and comes out of the oven, and you know, sure it looks good, but then you try it and you don't like it, the instinct for a lot of us is to have the opinion that oh, well, this was just a big waste of time. But what about that little extra black pepper, maybe that will change it. And as soon as you start getting into those micro experiments, it's not that your oven is bad or your cooking method is bad, or you need to go you know, become a, you know, an acclaimed chef and go through an entire cooking school in order to make this particular recipe right. It's what is right for you what is right from your circumstances, and just pushing for it in small baby steps and running those experiments that will then teach you in the best possible way, which micro pivot to take in which micro pivots to sort of throw away and learn the lessons from and the combination of all of those micro pivots over a long period of time is what moves us forward on our own personal journey's.

Marisa Huston : 16:06

And I like the fact that we don't need to reinvent the wheel. It's very unlikely that one of us have thought of something so unique that nobody else in the universe has thought of it. If you're thinking it, there's somebody out there that probably has and the main difference then is have they acted on it? Have they experimented? Have they tried something with it? You can be thinking it but if you don't take any action, then it serves no purpose in terms of achieving whatever goal you've set out to achieve. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the common things that people are concerned about when it comes to pivoting. How do we link a specific pivot to an overall strategic vision?

Joseph Young : 16:46

I think that's a great question. It's funny because I also tend to think of things in terms of ingredients. Facts are ingredients. Other people's opinions are ingredients. You're taking this set of ingredients that we were talking about and sort of smishing together in a new way, a new recipe to see if it's, you know, new and exciting. Or if we've learned it's a bad idea to sort of bake cookies with cornstarch instead of baking soda or whatever, right? And so like linking that specific pivot to your overall vision, I feel it's the same analogy. Like I have this dish that sends a particular level of finish, the dish is my overall strategic vision. The specific pivot is the black pepper or the little micro change, right? Try this micro change. How does it taste after that? Does it move it to a more mature level or not? But you always have to have a link. Don't just pick a random ingredient from your pantry and are like, Oh, well, you know, this, these cookies don't look right, let me just close my eyes and you know, pick something from my spice rack and pour it over and see if that'll change. You always have still an underlying informed gut instinct that informs the next experiment that you run and that's informed by that overall strategic vision. That is the thing that you've been thinking about for a long period of time and thinking of what do the edges of this particular vision look like? And then as you're running those specific pivots, you're thinking about how well that particular puzzle piece fits into that overall puzzle. It's art to one degree, and it's also an experiment on its own the actual experiment of pivoting, but it's also an art that can be tweaked over time by the act of pivoting. And so it is a pivot to pivot for the first time and you can't really know how it will feel to do a little micro pivot in the context of that overall strategic vision into you actually run that experiment.

Marisa Huston : 18:40

How do we go into prioritizing where to start because there might be a bunch of different pivots that we have to do in our business? You know, maybe multiple things aren't working, right. How do we look at that and say, alright, this is the one I want to start with because oftentimes they can even be interconnected to each other And so that might be an issue that maybe prevents people from moving ahead because they kind of feel paralyzed. They don't really know where to start.

Joseph Young : 19:09

Like I have these 15 things that I feel like have to happen all at once or none of them will actually work. Right?

Marisa Huston : 19:15

Exactly.

Joseph Young : 19:16

I mean, I think that's a great question. I feel like it depends on the type of person you are, to a degree, I myself am a gut instinct driven person. And so I tend to prioritize things by the degree to which I feel based off of informed instinct that this particular puzzle piece fits into the larger puzzle in a better, more cohesive way than all of the others. But that's just a very arbitrary instinct. But if it does feel like it might be a good fit on all sides, it's sort of immediately become more important to me because I feel like the upside is potentially the biggest. Bonus points if it's simultaneously a good fit and a low risk thing or somehow something that you can sort of segment into a low risk activity somehow, like, oh, like if I have a business that a retail business, maybe I can dedicate 10% of my revenue over the next month to running some crazy thing and being okay with the potential of completely losing that 10%. Because I feel like and the overall price of knowing what the actual result of that experiment would be is worth the potential loss. But if you can segment it into something that is a little bit lower risk, or you can swallow the most dire consequences of that thing in a better way, then to me that also prioritizes it for me.

Marisa Huston : 20:38

We think we have to change everything in the organization. And oftentimes, we can just start with a small group. Like maybe have a test group and get their feedback and find out how that works. You're in full control of what it is that you want to do and don't let it take over you. You're still in control with these decisions. You just need to decide how micro or macro do you want to get, and then try and figure out what's working. But for me, I feel like it's less threatening if I tried in a small controlled group, for example, to see where it's heading first before I implemented it across the board.

Joseph Young : 21:11

Exactly. And for me, I like big moves, which is just my end of the spectrum, right. And so I like to jump into large brand new unknown things because I like to be able to look around and just let the universe teach me where I was right and jumping into this and where I was wrong and jumping into it. And so I feel like for both of our sides, it's the same answer. It's like, how do we approach receiving the facts and receiving the results of these experiments? And do we take it step by step or do we jump in and both of them are equally valid for us.

Marisa Huston : 21:40

Yes. And I'm glad we talked about that, because it just shows that you can approach things from different perspectives and still get the results you're looking for and it's not a right or wrong. It's what you're comfortable with. Go with that, but at least go. Just do something. Don't ignore it and push it aside because that's obviously not going to get you where you want to go.

Joseph Young : 21:59

Yeah, I think at least personally, a thing that's helped me a lot being somebody that just jumps headlong into things. I've struggled a lot. You know, I've had a lot of failures by just being somebody who likes to jump into things. And one of the best things that ever happened was building the team at the business that I have now, because that team is full of people who are less risky than I am. And I get to listen to them and I get to throw my ideas out to them as a sounding board to sort of bet my pivots with. And my job becomes to use my gut instinct to try and convince them of this grand plan that I have, but also and more real primarily to listen to their reaction to that as people who are living in their own universes and having other pieces of the puzzle that I just will never have and figuring out through that conversation becomes an action in itself becomes a micro experiment in itself, because it's showing your own little team or your own focus groups reaction to this thing that you want to embark upon.

Marisa Huston : 23:09

Yeah, getting a totally different perspective. That's very important because oftentimes, we're seeing things through our eyes. And it's important to open up our vision to other people's vision. I think that also a lot of us don't know exactly when is the right time to pivot? How long do you hold on to something before you say it's time to try something different? I know there's no right or wrong answer. But it's something that many of us struggle with because you feel like if I just tried a little longer if I just held on a little longer, I might have gotten over that hump, but then oftentimes, you hold on too long and then you ask yourself, why didn't I switch gears a year ago?

Joseph Young : 23:46

Right, once the universe sort of backed you up against the wall and forced you into the thing or gotten you closer to having to make the big decision that you've been sitting on for such a long time?

Marisa Huston : 23:56

That's a tough one.

Joseph Young : 23:57

Yeah. And I feel like we all know that we will all never ever know if we pivoted at exactly the right time or not. And that contributes to our fear of it. But a thing that I didn't actually think of until I started, the business that I started is that conversely, you will always know if you chose to never ever run that experiment because you know, it's in your head. And so, listen to that discomfort. If you've never ever taken a big leap before, try and reframe that leap into, hey, here's an experiment that I'm going to run the actual act of taking the leap is the experiment that I'm going to run and like, throw yourself into that no matter how macro or micro it is, and just see how it feels. Look around and take in what the universe is telling you in this new bubble that you jumped into and just sit in it, run the experiment of how does it feel to do a pivot and let that run its course because that is the best teacher for the future pivots that you're going to run. And we see this all the time with pivots that are forced upon us when we are backed up against the wall. You hear lots of stories of people that are either on their deathbeds, or had too many giant events change in their life, you know, in the course of a short period of time. Something within them changes and they become somebody with an entirely new lease on life, but they had to be forced back against the wall in order to break through that. And the only way that we can reach that space, other than waiting for the universe to back us up against the wall, which is extremely painful.

Marisa Huston : 25:40

And stressful!

Joseph Young : 25:41

And stressful, right? Is to take a little bit of a leap forward, no matter if it's an inch or a mile, and then just sit there for a second and figure out what does this new place that I'm standing in feel like?

Marisa Huston : 25:55

It's that balance between what's the worst that can happen if I don't do this? And if that answer is really, really scary. Like, I don't even want to go there because that is not an option for me that might be a motivator to move forward quicker. It's a timing issue and that timing is going to be different for everyone. I'd love it if you could share just a quick example with our listeners regarding a situation where a company made a pivot, and it turned out for the best.

Joseph Young : 26:21

Yeah, sure. So one company that we all know is Twitter. We tend to think of Twitter as oh my gosh, they had this great idea, you know, and now they're a multibillion dollar value company. And, you know, oh my gosh, they started from scratch and they built this thing that has changed the entire trajectory of humanity. Twitter actually started out as a tool called Odeo, which was a network where people could subscribe to podcasts. And this was just around the time of other podcasts coming into reality and a bunch of businesses trying to become the best podcaster fighter, and then iTunes sort of began to take over that a podcast space and they started realizing that they were not going to win that battle. And so the founders went to their employees and said, hey, let's take the next two weeks and come up with a new idea. It doesn't have to be in any way related to anything that we were doing before. But it should be within your particular skills and passions and let's just see where this takes us. And that's the thing that started a micro status updating microblogging platform called Twitter that we have today. So the entire company moved from one thing to another, using a reach out to their own team to come up with something entirely new that was still aligned with their passion.

Marisa Huston : 27:44

Yes, you're saying to people don't let this box you in think outside the box and think about other things that we can do within this space that might be even better. We don't know. And so think about that. And everybody bring your ideas and keep it open and don't knock any of those ideas until we can come up with something that we think we can stand behind. And that's really important. It's opening up your mind to new things, as opposed to saying, No, we're stuck in this thing, and we can't get out of it.

Joseph Young : 28:13

Yeah. And I will say something about the fear of not being able to get out of things. I feel like, and this is just a theory that I've had for a while. I'm always curious if a piece of that fear also comes from us being used to being stuck in things for such a long period of time and that feeling like the act of getting out of things is just as giant of a venture as we feel getting into things is. But if we take it from a micro perspective in getting in, you can also take it from a micro perspective in getting out and it makes the result of an experiment that did not go the way that we wanted become less scary because we can reframe it ourselves and we can choose to reframe it as it's easy for me to just do another pivot and move in a different direction or pick up back where I left off, and we don't have to completely topsy turvy our lives on either side of that experiment in order to actually run that experiment. It's easy in and easy out. It's the way that I feel like we should think about it.

Marisa Huston : 29:09

Yes. And I think we just make it bigger than it needs to be. It can be as big as we want it to be. But we can take it in small steps. Just pivot. However small you need to. The important thing is that you're moving forward, you're making changes, you're adjusting, and you're learning along the way. So in essence, it's a good thing all across the board, no matter what, because you're gonna get a benefit out of it in some way, shape, or form. This is just amazing stuff. And I think it's very important that us business people think about things like this because it is part and parcel of what we do as business owners, as decision makers in our companies. We need to be always open minded and trying new things and not being afraid to do that and adjusting to the environment because that's very important to keep our businesses relevant. I want to thank you so much for sharing all this with us today, Joseph. How do people get ahold of you? Is there anything you'd like to share with our listeners today?

Joseph Young : 30:03

Yeah, so my business is called Kuvio Creative. We're a team of website designers and developers, app developers and marketers and operation gurus that are basically a team of pivoters. This is all we have done over the last four years is run experiments, and build our own products and help others build products and websites as well through that process of experimentation. And so anybody who's listening, we'd love to offer you a free review of your app or your website or your business to provide our input on those potential pivots that you could make to your online presence or to your product to better help you reach your customers. You can just go to www.kuv.io/contact and mention that you heard us on this podcast and leave us a note and we'll be in touch to schedule a call with you.

Marisa Huston : 30:54

I am so grateful to have you here today and for sharing all this wonderful information with all of us. Thank you.

Joseph Young : 31:00

Thank you.

Marisa Huston : 31:02

That's all for this episode of Live Blissed Out. Thanks for listening and thanks to Joseph Young for being my guest. If you find value in our show, please visit www.liveblissedout.com to reach out, subscribe and share on social media. This show is made possible through listeners like you. Thank you. So long for now and remember to keep moving forward!